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I believe that a squadron was 12 operational pilots/aircraft but wasnt the strength 16 men and machines at the start to guarantee (as far as possible) that 12 were available. This is a sensible contigency for operations, quickly swallowed up when battle starts.When things got really tough the rotation of entire squadrons stopped. Fresh squadrons with inexperienced pilots simply took heavier losses than the squadrons they replaced. For example, No. 616 Squadron lost 5 pilots and 12 aircraft in a week (25th August - 2nd September).
I believe that a squadron was 12 operational pilots/aircraft but wasnt the strength 16 men and machines at the start to guarantee (as far as possible) that 12 were available. This is a sensible contigency for operations, quickly swallowed up when battle starts.
I'm doing this from memory as I'm not at home this weekend, but I'm reasonably sure of the numbers
Following the introduction of the stabilisation system an 'A' class squadron was supposed to have 16 operational pilots. In 1939 the figure was a total 26 pilots, but the definition of operational before the war might be different. A man fresh from an OTU would be considered an operational pilot in peacetime, but would be continuing his training with his squadron. During the BoB he might find his was to a squadron in 11 Group, but from the second week in September he would almost certainly be posted to a 'B' or 'C' class squadron in another Group.
Cheers
Steve
True the fuel penalty of the p51. But the 190 also had penalties that crippled its prformanceCorsning I completely concur, it depends on what you need it to do. The thing I think people don't consider is that yes, at similar combat weights the Fw-190 has an advantage (as well as the Me-109). That is to be expected, However, the Mustang flew 3 hours to get to the fight, and is very close in performance, will fight for 30 minutes, then fly 3 hours home. The weight penalty the Mustang has to carry the amount of fuel, oil, O2, etc, to stay airborne for up to 7 hours is huge, yet it hung with best prop fighters the Axis could come up with.
Cheers,
Biff
True the fuel penalty of the p51. But the 190 also had penalties that crippled its prformance
it had to operate on lower grade fuel
it had to carry heavy armor to survive attacks on the heavy bombers
it had to carry heavy cannons for the same reason
it had no acces to raw materials, so no turbosupercharged vertion.
it had to be constructed in undercovered factories by u trained workers or even slaves.so low building quality
it had to use the heavy camouflage paint because of the operational enviroment. Th e p51 did not have to use camouflage
it had to face specialized opponents. LF spits, tempests,yaks, las at low altitude, HF spits, p47s, p51s, at high altitude.the 190 had one confuguration for all different needs because of the production needs
Personally i see only 2 clear ,constructive,advantages of the p 51 d over the d9. The wing profile and the 2 stage supercharger.
The quoted performance specs do not support your contention, Tomo, C3 or not. The numbers are the numbers. You are simply muddling the facts here.
Might be true, but the numbers quoted don't say that. I'd be inclined to believe slightly higher numbers for the Fw 190 D-9, but that might open up slightly higher numbers for the P-51D, too. You accept the quoted numbers or you don't. I tend to accept them. If so, the numbers are true and fact. If not. then the field is wide open, with the P-51D having the better Cdo and WAY higher numbers of combatant aircraft.. I'm starting to doubt it ...
Armor doesn't change the listed weights. Turbo or supercharger is not important in the slightest. The service ceiling (performance) IS. And the P-51D was better altogether, by a margin. Not great. but a margin anyway.
The big difference between turbo and super is rpm of the impeller. The P-51D was far more robust and better altitude-capable. Fact.
Try fighting eleven to two. You lose, every time!
Unless you are Royce Gracie ... or modern equivalent. The Fw 190 D-9 wasn't.
It WAS good. But not 11 to 2 good. Neither was the Ta 152, which was basically a very slightly improved Fw 190 D ... and they only delivered about 42 of them; never more than 20 in service at any one time. That from Adolph Galland. He should have known, if anyone did, being in command.
True the fuel penalty of the p51. But the 190 also had penalties that crippled its prformance
it had to operate on lower grade fuel
it had to carry heavy armor to survive attacks on the heavy bombers
it had to carry heavy cannons for the same reason
it had no acces to raw materials, so no turbosupercharged vertion.
it had to be constructed in undercovered factories by u trained workers or even slaves.so low building quality
it had to use the heavy camouflage paint because of the operational enviroment. Th e p51 did not have to use camouflage
it had to face specialized opponents. LF spits, tempests,yaks, las at low altitude, HF spits, p47s, p51s, at high altitude.the 190 had one confuguration for all different needs because of the production needs
Personally i see only 2 clear ,constructive,advantages of the p 51 d over the d9. The wing profile and the 2 stage supercharger.
The Fw 190D-9 have had capability to operate on the C3 fuel (by midd/late 1944 about as good as Allied 100/150 grade), along with MW-50 system - thus no clear advantage for P-51 there. Granted, P-51s will have more fuel to use, but that is not a feature of the P-51, but of the war situation.
P-51D was also carrying armor + protection for it's bigger tanks, so IMO that point is moot. Weapon set-up of the Fw 190D-9 was no heavier than of the P-51D.
P-51 was without turbo either. Build quality of the Fw 190s was always good, or at least it was before Spring of 1945.
P-51 also clashed vs. anything Axis, and was tested against Allied fighters, usually coming ahead with few exceptions.
I agree with latest paragraph. We might also toss in the late coming of the D-9 as a (non-constructive) shortcoming, that really was within the capability of German aeronautical industry already in winter of 1943/44.
Dedalos,
All aircraft designs have trade offs, or penalties. The Me-109 was small, carried a small amount of fuel, and had a big motor. Sounds like a race car meant to run 25 laps. The Fw-190D was bigger, carried a bit more fuel, and could go 30 laps. The P-51BCD had about the same motor, was a bit cleaner drag wise, and could compete well with the FW and ME, AND go over 100 laps. I'm not disparaging the German aircraft, as a matter of fact the Fw-190D is my favorite Axis aircraft. However, performance snap shots are just that, a snap shot. It's nice to compare them, and they are a starting point of a conversation about different aircraft, but are by no means the be all end all.
The performance comparisons should lead the conversation to how were they used and why. The capability that made the Mustang so useful was it's ability to hang with the best prop fighters Germany could make AND fly 5 hours more. This single point is completely ignored or pushed aside so often. Put yourself in the Commanding Generals shoes (either side) and tell me if this wasn't a tremendous advantage or not. Or the conversation could go as to why was Focke Wolf making planes whose factories were getting bombed, or why were the German pilots not trained like their adversaries. Who has the advantage, a new fighter pilot with 300-400 hours between pilot training and additional time in P-39's / P-40's, then clobber college in the Mustang in England before flying his first combat sortie, or the kid who has 50-100 hours total when he arrives at the merge? Why did that occur?
A bit long winded of an answer, however my point is the charts are but one part of the equation that is a weapon system.
Cheers,
Biff
Y
Hurricane squadrons appear to have 22 a/c and Spitfire squadrons have 18 a/c. Also has a/c issued to the squadrons.
To Biff's excellent points regarding airplane vs weapons system (which to me was a dirty word when looking at Century Series USAF fighters), the Merlin Mustang, P-47N and P-38J-25/L were examples of combat aviation that were excellent 'systems'.
The attribute, given that all three were fast and maneuverable, that made them excellent weapon systems was the interchangeability of external load capability combined with large internal fuel fraction. All three could go deep with a combination of Bombs and Fuel tanks, could go long on internal fuel alone without the drag of the external loads, could go extremely long and arrive 'clean' for combat and still return.
Photo recon? Yes. Armed Recon at low level? Yes, Fighter Bomber at combat radius =300 miles? Yes. Air superiority with maneuverability and speed at all altitudes - more or less equal to their finest piston engine opponents? Yes. Low level interdiction of surface transport, airfields, etc. at bomber distances? Yes.
I once had a long letter exchange with Eric Brown during which we debated his placement of F6F and FW 190 as 'great fighters ranking' slightly above the Mustang. My key and salient point was the tactical flexibility combined with outstanding performance envelope that actually none of his top choices possessed - that limited their utility as a tool of airpower.
The strategic footprint of the three fighters I named above were unmatched in the COMBINATION of combat range and capability throughout.
He conceded the point but closed with point fighter argument and tried to hold the FW 190 position vs Mustang by stating that the Mustang had a lower Mcr due to the radiator scoop of the P-51. I was very surprised that he held that belief as he was also an Aeronautical engineer. For some reason he either ignored the RAE Mark IV dive tests or simply had that info as a blind spot. I admired and respected him - and tip my hat to a great aviation figure of importance that ranks with anyone.
I would ask that we keep a distinction between the 190A and the 190D as there are a few more differences than just the engine.
like
78kg out of 145.7kg of armor on an A-8 are for the oil cooler? Did the D-9 also use a lot of armor around the oil cooler or radiator?
The D series and the Ta 152h had the basic A8 fuselage and radiator armor of 150 kgr
The P-51 also devoted a fair amount of weight to a different form of protection. The self sealing fuel tanks. Weight for the wing tanks in a B or C was about 320lbs minus the fuel lines and valves. you need bigger heavier tanks to hold the greater amount of fuel the P-51 carried. The rear fuselage tank increased empty weight by about 265lbs, tank, self sealing balder/lining, supports/brackets and fuel lines.
I have no figures peak figures for the French Jumo 213 at altitude but it's take off rating was 2300hp at 3250rpm using 11lbs boost (52in) and water injection on 100/130 fuel. it was rated at 2100hp/3250rpm/11lbs boost dry. Perhaps power went up a bit as the aircraft climbed to full throttle height?
Obviously a d9 with 2100hp dry and 2300hp with adi would be quite more capable than historicaly.On 150 fuel would be propably over 2400hp
Rating engines was often a balancing act between desired output and desired time between overhauls. Some engines were given higher ratings with few, if any changes, in exchange for shorter times between overhauls like the Russian 105 series. The Post war French Jumo 213s were used in a flying boat and they may have been going for longer overhaul times than a WW I fighter, I don't know. However the NORMAL rating for the engine (max continuous?) was 1720hp at 3,000rpm at 5,900ft in low gear and 1500hp at 3,000rpm at 16,400ft. I would note that a commercial Merlin 724 engine was rated at 1500hp at 2850rpm at 7750ft in low gear and 1420hp at 285rpm at 18,750ft in high gear on 100/130 fuel. figures are from the 1953 edition of "aircraft engines of the world".
I would guess that the French were not suffering from any material shortages at this time in the way of alloys or bearings.
Yes they did not suffer from materials shortages. But they also did not re designed the engine. They made use of captured tools and reproduced the german design
Higher performance fuel does little or nothing for altitude performance without a suitable supercharger system.
Fully agree. The decision of the germans ,early in the war, not to introduce 2 stage superchargers gave the alleid fighters decisive advantage at the most critical time.
Germans were well aware of the benefits of using two stage superchargers (non-turbo) since both Daimler Benz and Auto Union had used them on Grand Prix cars in 1939. granted they used roots compressors rather than centrifugal compressors but the ability to reach the same boost with less temperature rise ( and thus the ability to make more power on the same fuel) was there.
Merlin engine chart
Please move power peaks to the left by 2500-3500ft to take out the effect of the 400mph ram. 18lbs or a bit more is the limit for 100/130 fuel in the Merlin. The 100/150 fuel did nothing for combat at altitudes over 20,000ft
Obviously i agree.The 150 fuel (and the MW50) above critical alltitude made no difference.The 2 stage supercharger is the main reason for the P51 s glory(