Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang

Soren

1st Lieutenant
6,457
21
Feb 6, 2005
Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang

Black12.jpg

Fw-190 D-9 Statistics:

Engine: Junkers Jumo 213A1 with MW-50 boost.
Power: 2,240 HP.
Max. Speed: 704 km/h. (438 mph.)
Max. Climb: 1110 m/min (3,642 ft/min.)
Empty Weight: 3,490 kg. (7,694 lbs.)
Loaded Weight *Clean*: 4,293 kg. (9,464 lbs.)
Max. Weight: 4,839 kg. (10,670 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 10.50 m. (34.4 ft.)
Wing-Area: 18.3 sq.m. (197 sq.ft.)
Armament: 2x 13mm HMG's (MG 131) 2x 20mm cannons (MG 151/20).

Fw-190 D-9 Aerodynamic statistics:

Wing-loading *Loaded*: 234.59 kg/sq.m. (48 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 6.02.
Airfoil: NACA 23015.3 - NACA 23009.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 15.3% Tip= 9% .
Wing CL-max *Freeflow*: 1.52 .

Lift-loading *Loaded*: 154.33 kg/sq.m. (31.5 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading *Loaded*: 1.91 kg/hp. (4.22 lbs/hp.)

Fw-190 D-9 Additional features:

-Bubble-canopy Flettner Tabs.
-Inclined seat position for better G-load resistance "Kommandogerat".

4FG.jpg

P-51D Mustang Statistics:

Engine: Packard Merlin V-1650-7.
Power: 1,790 HP.
Max.Speed: 703 km/h (437mph).
Max. Climb: 1011 m/min. (3,320 ft/min)
Empty Weight: 3,466 kg. (7,641 lbs.)
Loaded Weight *Clean*: 5,034 kg. (11,100 lbs.)
Max. Weight: 5,489 kg. (12,100 lbs.)
Wing-Span: 11.3 m. (37.07 ft.)
Wing-Area: 21.64 sq.m. (233 sq.ft.)
Armament: 6x .50 cal HMG's (M2).

P-51D Mustang Aerodynamic statistics:

Wing-Loading *Loaded*: 232.62 kg/sq.m. (47.6 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 5.81 .
Airfoil: "Laminar" NAA/NACA 45-100 - NAA/NACA 45-100.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 14.8 or 15% Tip= 12%.
Wing CL-max: 1.28 .

Lift-loading *Loaded*: 181.73 kg/sq.m. (37.18 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading *Loaded*: 2.81 kg/hp. (6.2 lbs/hp.)

P-51D Mustang Additional features:

-Laminar wing Tear-shaped canopy.
-Gyro-Gunsight.

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Aerodynamic Facts:

Airfoil Thickness Ratio - Higher is better.
Airfoil CL-max - Higher is better.
Wing Aspect Ratio - Higher is better.

Lift-loading - Lower is better.
Power-loading - Lower is better.

Wing Aspect ratio info:
High aspect ratio wings have long spans (like high performance gliders), while low aspect ratio wings have either short spans (like the F-16 fighter) or thick chords (like the Space Shuttle). There is a component of the drag of an aircraft called induced drag which depends inversely on the aspect ratio. A higher aspect ratio wing has a lower drag and a higher lift than a lower aspect ratio wing. All else being equal, the higher the wing aspect ratio, the higher the wing Cl-max is also going to be.

Laminar wing info:
Laminar flow wings lowered the drag, but this came at the cost of lower lift, especially under high G loads. A Laminar flow wing will stall earlier and more violently than a conventional wing.
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It is easy to understand why the Fw-190D-9 was considered a nasty handful for the P-51D !
 

KraziKanuK

Banned
792
4
Jan 26, 2005
Soren nice but the Dora did not have Flettner tabs.

-Bubble-canopy Flettner Tabs.

If you want to see Flettner tabs look at the rudder of late model Me109s.
 

Erich

the old Sage
12,376
59
May 20, 2004
Platonic Sphere
maybe Soren you should follow up on the operational aspects on the Dora, the poor craft got it's nose very bloodied by P-51's. giving the Mustang a handful it did not. the German pilots were never able to prove themselves with their new toy even back in the Fall of 44 while with the first operational gruppe III./JG 54.

Agaisnt the Soviets it was another story altogether and the Dora reigned supremem over every Soviet fighter pitted against it
 

FLYBOYJ

"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Staff
Mod
28,097
8,668
Apr 9, 2005
Colorado, USA
Erich said:
maybe Soren you should follow up on the operational aspects on the Dora, the poor craft got it's nose very bloodied by P-51's. giving the Mustang a handful it did not. the German pilots were never able to prove themselves with their new toy even back in the Fall of 44 while with the first operational gruppe III./JG 54.

Agaisnt the Soviets it was another story altogether and the Dora reigned supremem over every Soviet fighter pitted against it

But was it becuase it was outnumbered, tactics or pilot skill? Or all the above?
 

Erich

the old Sage
12,376
59
May 20, 2004
Platonic Sphere
all three above it was- the Dora not up to par at high altitudes with the P-51. It was a superior at mid range with all Soviet fighter types.

I know the stats and that's all they are will say otherwise and the Dora was much better suited in fighter vs fighter with US craft than any of the Anton variants but still was not ultimately suited for "coming on up" to higher flying P-51's

overpowered by the odds, too few good pilots, underfuled, never quite having the upper hand in combat except on very few times
 

alejandro_

Airman 1st Class
281
53
Jul 4, 2005
Agaisnt the Soviets it was another story altogether and the Dora reigned supremem over every Soviet fighter pitted against it

IIRC it was deployed in greater quantities in the Western front. In the eastern front the fights took place at low altitudes where the A versions were ok. The main reason for the D9 was to get a good performance at high altitudes, which the Fw-190A lacked.

http://www.airpages.ru/cgi-bin/epg.pl?nav=lw40&page=fw190d

In that link you can read an assesment by the Soviet AF Scientific Research Institute. Note that it's very likely that the MW-50 kit was not used.

Regards.
 

Soren

1st Lieutenant
6,457
21
Feb 6, 2005
You are quite right Krazi, it was a mistake I wrote that, the Dora used a fixed tab. My mistake.

maybe Soren you should follow up on the operational aspects on the Dora, the poor craft got it's nose very bloodied by P-51's. giving the Mustang a handful it did not. the German pilots were never able to prove themselves with their new toy even back in the Fall of 44 while with the first operational gruppe III./JG 54.

However that doesn't really reflect the performance of the aircraft itself. In the hands of a good pilot the Fw-190D-9 was a nightmare for any P-51 pilot.

Also the Dora-9 was infact designed to have better performance at high alt than its predecessor, however the cabin design wasn't able to provide adequate pressurization.

The fact that the Fw-190's suffered high losses was entirely due to the fact that their pilots were ill trained and that they were outnumbered approx. 10 to 1, it cannot be blamed on the aircraft itself, it was a marvel of a machine.

Agaisnt the Soviets it was another story altogether and the Dora reigned supremem over every Soviet fighter pitted against it

Absolutely.
 

Erich

the old Sage
12,376
59
May 20, 2004
Platonic Sphere
no the Dora was flown at mid altitudes to low altitude many times by JG 51 and IV./JG 3 pilots as described in their flugbuchs and in the Geschwader log-buchs. As well as II./JG 301 Doras while in the last battles for Berlin.

Soren do you see my point, you can explain away all the stas you want for both Luftw and US machines and it will do no good, the Dora was slaughtered in the skies over the Reich in all the units that it was destined for. it never gave the Mustang a hard time in the sky. True some of the noted aces in the 109/Fw 190A flew the Dora in JG 26 but racked up few kills in late 44-45 to even reflect that their bird coudl take out the Mustang at will.

the big deal was it never conclusively replaced the existing Luftw arsenal, if it had in late 44 then a better and overall tribute could be made on it's performance against all Allied "western' fighters.

in spring of 45: Doras in

JG 2 equipped
part of the ex-sturm IV./JG 3
stab in JG 4
part of II./JG 6
JG 26 equipped
several units in II./JG 300 more like about 8 a/c
II./JG 301 the 5-7th staffels, the 8th had A-9's

v/r Alt ♫
 

KraziKanuK

Banned
792
4
Jan 26, 2005
Didn't Yeager say the only LW fighter that gave him fits was the Dora?

A little trivia. Slightly more Doras were produced than Kurfurst 109s.
 

Soren

1st Lieutenant
6,457
21
Feb 6, 2005
no the Dora was flown at mid altitudes to low altitude many times by JG 51 and IV./JG 3 pilots as described in their flugbuchs and in the Geschwader log-buchs. As well as II./JG 301 Doras while in the last battles for Berlin.

Erich I never claimed they didn't, so what is your point ?

Soren do you see my point, you can explain away all the stas you want for both Luftw and US machines and it will do no good, the Dora was slaughtered in the skies over the Reich in all the units that it was destined for. it never gave the Mustang a hard time in the sky.

Erich the Dora-9's were mainly flown by inexperienced pilots with very few flight hours, against P-51's with properly trained pilots which outnumbered them 10 to 1. Thats why they got slaughtered Erich. Had the P-51 been in the same situation, it would've done even worse.

True some of the noted aces in the 109/Fw 190A flew the Dora in JG 26 but racked up few kills in late 44-45 to even reflect that their bird coudl take out the Mustang at will.

"Take out the Mustang at will" ? what do you mean Erich ?
You don't just take out another aircraft at will, it takes skill to do such a thing, nomatter how superior your aircraft is.

You could be flying the best aircraft of the war, and still get your ass kicked by a vastly inferior aircraft flown by a better pilot.

the big deal was it never conclusively replaced the existing Luftw arsenal, if it had in late 44 then a better and overall tribute could be made on it's performance against all Allied "western' fighters.

It probably would've if the Germans have had the resources, but they didnt.
 

Erich

the old Sage
12,376
59
May 20, 2004
Platonic Sphere
soren you are off mark. my first comment you quoted was not directed at you but the poster before you concerning the Ost front.

the second point is that you are not quite correct the Dora was flown by many experienced pilots.

as to the comment take out at will maybe that was a bit sloppy but look at my earlier postings it is alle xplained and you have just repeated my comments for good measure, it is all explained in this thread and the past ones archived over the last 2 years on the A-8 Sturms, me 262 and the Dora about the overwhelming power of the Us might and even the RAF as Jg 26 experienced.

I really feel you guys are making the Dora out to be a super a/c against the P-51. Reality here it wasn't. I have said it so many times it will have to be repeated again, the Dora was not to replace the front line units the TA and the Me 262 had the war continued. I posted the stats twice in older threads about what unit was going to be replaced by what in June/July of 45 with the inkiling of newer equipment such as jets taking complete control.

The Lufw in 45 had literally too many experimental a/c in service with trained/untrained pilots eager to take them up against Allied escorts and Heavies. there was plenty of craft and boys to fly, BUT no fuel. that was proven even in the Nachtjagd. Had fuel reserves been available then we would of seen an RAF horro like in march of 44 when over 100 RAF heavies bit the dust

just a side note the Dora 9 was even considered to be used as a night fighter
 

KraziKanuK

Banned
792
4
Jan 26, 2005
Erich not to send the thread OT but do you have stats for German fuel availability for 1945? For each command district would be a bonus.
 

Erich

the old Sage
12,376
59
May 20, 2004
Platonic Sphere
that would be nice if anyone had that..........so much materials were lost in Berlin in late 44 till wars end when the Soviets destroyed the city.

as we have all chatted in the past of something we thought was quite easy : confirmed kills or even claims by the Luftwaffe for fall of 44 till wars end and the command did not process them anymore so what is available to us is what is in logbooks from the pilots/crews and the wing histories. this is obvious why we just do not see much written about the nachtjagd or some of the day fighter units, the information is lost forever.

_____________________________________________________________

getting back to the Dora 9, Jerry Crandalls new work on the a/c and some of the pilots might be worth a check this summer; and then this thread can go further as needed info will be available. I have some info unpublished on my cousins outfit in II./JG 301 but I have no intention of releasing it in the near future except for a dribble or two.

I did release friend and ace Oskar Romm's acct of his kills and flying the Dora 9 on the Ost front earlier I thought..... ?
 

Soren

1st Lieutenant
6,457
21
Feb 6, 2005
soren you are off mark. my first comment you quoted was not directed at you but the poster before you concerning the Ost front.

Sorry, I did not realise that.

the second point is that you are not quite correct the Dora was flown by many experienced pilots.

How do you define "many" Erich ? Cause the vast majority of Dora-9's were flown by VERY green pilots, pilots who in no way were prepared to engage the swarms of allied fighters which opposed them.

Experienced pilots managed to to make a good number of Allied fighter pilots piss their pans out of sheer terror, as they demonstrated the real potential of the Dora-9.

The fact that Fw-190's were slaughtered in late 44-45, is entirely due to the shortages of properly trained pilots and fuel, the fighter itself simply cannot be blamed.

I really feel you guys are making the Dora out to be a super a/c against the P-51. Reality here it wasn't.

Again you make the mistake of blaming the aircraft itself, something you simply cannot do Erich. As I said ealier, the P-51 would've done an even worse job had it been in the same situation.

The Fw-190D-9 was a superior fighter to most Allied fighters, except for the Spitfire XIV which would be a real handful for the Dora-9, but it goes both ways.

I have said it so many times it will have to be repeated again, the Dora was not to replace the front line units the TA and the Me 262 had the war continued. I posted the stats twice in older threads about what unit was going to be replaced by what in June/July of 45 with the inkiling of newer equipment such as jets taking complete control.

I agree, the Ta-152 and me262 was the way to go for Germany, as these two aircraft would've totally dominated the skies over europe had they been produced ealier and in larger numbers, with adequate amounts of properly trained pilots available for them.

The Lufw in 45 had literally too many experimental a/c in service with trained/untrained pilots eager to take them up against Allied escorts and Heavies. there was plenty of craft and boys to fly, BUT no fuel.

Properly trained pilots were few and far between in 45, and the fact that Germany was experimenting with so many aircraft designs didnt make the situation any better.

that was proven even in the Nachtjagd. Had fuel reserves been available then we would of seen an RAF horro like in march of 44 when over 100 RAF heavies bit the dust

Fuel shortages were certainly hugely to blame for the LW's defeat, but lack of properly trained pilots was certainly also a factor.
 

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