Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang

[Erich]

Soren look at III./JG 54 for starts and then the cadre formed Iv./JG 26, the JG 26 geschwader was the leading Dora unit very experineced , read some details from the many books covering the unit. Iv./Jg 3 pilots from FW 190A-8/A-9's took on the Soviet a/c and slaughtered them in the Doras they finally go something more powerful in the way of speed and turn.

what do you mean blame the a/c ?

you have proof of course of the individual "experienced" or non experienced Luftw pilots that made the Allied pilots piss in their pants correct ?

the slaughter had nothing to do with a/c or poorly trained pilots. think radar detection in late 44 -45. there was none, the Us P-51's in 9 out of 10 cases were alwasy flying higger than ALL German prop driven a/c coming to mee them or the bombers. the log books state this over and over, second volume JG 300 shows it clearly, the Fw 190 and 109 pilots never had a chance and it did not matter what type of expereince you had.

and finally you are just repeating my statements to prove what type of point if you have any and you don't.........so quit it now please.

the Dora was not superior to the P-51 D or K period.

The RAF for one allowed a JG 51 ace to fly his Dora in combat in mock combat after war with an RAF fighter, the RAF was not impressed.

On another note I feel the Dora was substantially better looking tha ll the Luftw fighters seeing service except it's cousin the Ta 152H but that is a motto matter

artist Claes Sundin's example of a 7./JG 301 Dora 9 1945

 

[syscom3]

I thought the lack of experienced pilots was more due to a lack of fuel to train them.

 

[Erich]

a but fuel depending just where was available to some extent. Ill trained pilots was due to shortness of daylight hours; due to the time in the Schulen, the reason they postponed their flights for late afternoon when Allied fighters had already made the turn for home. Also le's realize the US had ill trained pilots up and going over the Reich, just as scared as the German boyz.

gents check this book out through friend Peter Kassak via Mushroom publications.

the March 2, 1945 massacre which I have much detail on. Read about the Dora 9's taking on P-51's in this small book. you can enver have too few a book I feel. In fact I need to nab a copy of this for my files.....

http://mmpbooks.biz/books/normal_covers/8389450224.jpg

 

[KraziKanuK]

Lange flew a Dora, some say a 9 and others say it was a 13, against a Tempest and beat the Tempest in a low level (under 3000m) dogfight.

ref. Hermann's Dora book

 

[Soren]

Fine Erich, what exactly made the Dora-9 such a lousy fighter, a fighter which stood no chance on a individual basis against the P-51 according to you ?

I suppose Chuck Yeager and Eric Brown, as-well as countless others, were all wrong when they called the Dora-9 "One the best fighters of WW2" ?

 

[paul.kachurak]

I made the speed and climb charts based on real data

The turn stuff are my calculations based on drag, power, etc. data

IMO below about 7000m the P-51D and Fw190D-9 are fairly evenly matched with initial combat conditions and pilot skill being the primary deciding factors.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Very Cool!

 

[Gnomey]

Good stuff Paul, welcome to the forum.

 

[Erich]

my gosh Soren you're such a pussy

if I were to say the Dora 9 was such a lousy fighter then I would say so. you read my comments on the useage in a brilliant pattern in brief detail in the past and recently on the thread we are debating. maybe you did not It was not superior to the Mustang and I don't care what type of graphs anyone puts up over the upteen years the net has been in service. Geezo guys why does this aways happen ? I've seen these graphs on every serious WW 2 Luftw site

Chuck is full of himself I doubt 1/2 the stuff he says, the master bullshitter as a good research friend has called him and chuckie knows it quite well and Eric Brown I actually know and the guy was not a combat pilot in WW 2. anymore you want to add guys ....... ? I still wait Soren your findings of RAf and US fg pilots pissing in their pants. Sadly you won't find any.

ok lets now change gears and put up some action reports because this IS simply genltmen what everyone should be posting, first person accounts not just guess work and what ifs which seem to carry here for nearly 1/3 of the existing threads. How about some intelligent questions asked and lets work together to find the answers instead of pointless debate which gets us nowhere. some of you guys love the Dora series and some the Mustang series of craft. Any concellation to all of you and it probably isn;t but I really don't care for either of them, so I am remaining forever truthful, not taking a side for either. presenting existing facts given to me through research an first hand experience ~ accts of pilots since 1968

 

[Lunatic]

Soren,

Under the P-51 you left out:

1) Much superior range and endurance.

2) Berger G-Suit for much superior G-tolerance while maintaining an optimal combat seating position (leaning back makes fighting harder).

3) 395 mph + sustainable cruising speed.

4) Much easier to mass produce.

And the Kommandogerat was an advange... right up to the point it got the divide by zero error and stopped working.

And the weight figures are based upon full fuel, where in actual combat the P-51 would have a lower proportion of its full fuel load than the D9.

Vision from the D9 was good (compared to many other WWII fighters), but it was not nearly as good as that from the P-51 both because of the canopy design and the pilot position (try reclining and then looking back over your shoulder while strapped in).

Also, actual top speed of the P-51D was 448 mph. For the P-51B it was 451 mph. 437 mph is under Military Power, not Combat Power (WEP). (Source - Kit Carson amoung others)

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Erich]

in additon to what Lunatic informed us.........get the book on March 2, 1945 with the 352nd fg taking it to II./JG 300 especially.

Mustang had better gunsight optics, although quite a unique sight was being tested with Fw gruppe II.Sturm/JG 300.

largest factor and maybe the prime one of importantce is the Mustang had the better altitude ceiling. As I have said countless times, the US pilots could say with ease.........come on up, whether Dora 9's or Bf 109G-10's

 

[Soren]

Oh dear

my gosh Soren you're such a pussy

Go ahead Erich, resort to insults if that helps you.

if I were to say the Dora 9 was such a lousy fighter then I would say so. you read my comments on the useage in a brilliant pattern in brief detail in the past and recently on the thread we are debating.

Huh ? Where, what, when ?????!!!

Whats with the sudden outbreak Erich ?

I still wait Soren your findings of RAf and US fg pilots pissing in their pants.

You certainly take things litterally Erich!

But ok, I'll dig out some comments from P-51 vets.

Soren,

Under the P-51 you left out:

1) Much superior range and endurance.

2) Berger G-Suit for much superior G-tolerance while maintaining an optimal combat seating position (leaning back makes fighting harder).

3) 395 mph + sustainable cruising speed.

4) Much easier to mass produce.

Im sure I left out alot of things about the Dora-9 as-well. How about up to 10min of boost ?

And about #3, no the cruising speed for P-51D was much lower at 275mph, and that is also what vets say it did.

And the Kommandogerat was an advange... right up to the point it got the divide by zero error and stopped working.

Example perhaps ?

And the weight figures are based upon full fuel, where in actual combat the P-51 would have a lower proportion of its full fuel load than the D9.

Would it really ? I think not, as the P-51D first dropped its main source of fuel, its drop tanks, when engaged by enemy fighters, having to fight with full internal fuel load. On the other hand many 190's and 109's flew on low fuel, partly because of the trip to engage their target and because of fuel shortages.

Vision from the D9 was good (compared to many other WWII fighters), but it was not nearly as good as that from the P-51 both because of the canopy design and the pilot position (try reclining and then looking back over your shoulder while strapped in).

Agreed, however forward vision was better in the Fw-190.

Also, actual top speed of the P-51D was 448 mph. For the P-51B it was 451 mph. 437 mph is under Military Power, not Combat Power (WEP). (Source - Kit Carson amoung others)

Kit Carson ?! Now THAT's a guy which is full of it, and I think most people will agree with that ! I personally believe nothing he says, what so ever, and Im surprised if anyone does.

 

[Soren]

Paul, nice charts but the CL-max figures are too high, especially for the P-51 which according to NACA themselves peaked at 1.28. You can read it yourself in Naca Report 829, Page 26 in the PDF of the Naca Report server.

 

[Erich]

Soren lets bury this crap between us right now ..............

I am though curious if you have other US vets that feel the Dora was a hot ticket.

I ask this because as a US 352nd fg member I have interviewed many of that group, some of them on the 2 march 45 mission that I have mentioned above. None of them were impressed except to say that is one of those new long nose/long tailed Fw's. Because of this possible excitement many were looking for Doras to pop.

You guys have read about Herr Pierre's acct of his wingman shot down and his holyier than though Tempest Le Grande Charles or something another holed so bad he almost went down with his craft. Rudi Wurff of 6./JG 301 Dora 9 PC's shot his companion down and almost P. C. in process with a fine jump out of the clouds on a perfect bounce. In Pc's book he claims that Rudi had over 7 kills, he really had only 3. He is pictured with his Dora in W. Resckes book JG 301/302

get this book as well, I know Les has the English version

 

[KraziKanuK]

Soren, the sop for the Mustang was to burn off at least 1/2 of the fuselage tank before switching to the dts.

As for fuel in the LW fighters, the typical combat radius of the the 190A and 109 was 130-150mi. with internal fuel. Cripes, even during Bodenplatte many ran out of fuel dispite carrying dts.


Erich, the Yeager comment was tongue in cheek.

 

[Erich]

KK I know that but I have first hand experience from this twit. Excellent pilot he was he makes no bones about being the best rough tough sob in the air over the Reich in his mind.

the man is offensively brutal even today when he appears

 

[KraziKanuK]

yes I have heard he is an obnoxious sob.

 

[Soren]

Soren lets bury this crap between us right now ..............

Im glad you said that, cause I really don't understand what all the fuzz was about.

I am though curious if you have other US vets that feel the Dora was a hot ticket.

I'll dig out some comments for you.

I ask this because as a US 352nd fg member I have interviewed many of that group, some of them on the 2 march 45 mission that I have mentioned above. None of them were impressed except to say that is one of those new long nose/long tailed Fw's. Because of this possible excitement many were looking for Doras to pop.

My experience is often the same, however since the LW pilots were facing the odds they were, it is understandable that many US fighter pilots found them to be easy prey. According to many US vets, 109G-k or 190A-D, it made no difference, they were all equally easy to shoot down, and the reason is simple, as it doesn't take long for 2-3 a/c together to bring down 1 enemy a/c. The odds were simply too great for the LW pilots, and it made no difference if they were flying 109's or 190's cause they were simply too few.

 

[Hunter368]

Just to add, I have read where many LW aces (top aces) were very scared to engage the bomber flights and their escorts b/c they knew the odds were so bad that not even a great pilot can take on 5 or 10 planes and win, maybe once or twice but that sort of odds is going to catch up to you sooner or later. LW pilots knew the war was over which did not help their motivation any to engage such huge odds on a daily basis. All I am saying that can you imagine how the green pilots felt when they saw those huge odds if even the "old hands" were scared.

 

[Erich]

Alt Hasen were really not so much afraid, as why bother the war is lost. The kids they knew were going to get plastered like my young cousin on his second mission trying to defend his Staffelkäpitan on 26 Nov. 44. My cousin must have proven himself adequately on 21 Nov 44 mission agasint B-17's and Mustangs evidently to be chosen to be the 5th staffel Stkpt. wingman, but to no use both he and his Kapitän were shot down by Mustangs and KIA.

sadly the Luftw. radar and intercept systems knew in approx. how many US bombers and fighters were taking off from England and enroute before they reached the shores of the Reich

my cousin now lies peacefully one of the many vanquished pilots