Fw-190 Dora-9 vs P-51D Mustang

[Peter Gunn]

Hey Greg, don't get me wrong, I'm in the same boat, I find just about all WWII fighters and bombers likable. As a kid growing up on the family airfield surrounded by farm country there were two ways to go, farming or aviation. I'm not a farmer.

I had SEVERE allergies growing up so most of my summers (until about 13 years of age) were spent on a couch or in bed breathing through wet cloth or later masks to keep out pollen. My outlet at the time was to read and I settled on WWII air combat almost from day one. My dad brought just about any book he could lay his hands on for me from the library and harassed them to get more all the time. He was a hard guy to refuse, still miss him.

Sorry, rambling, what I meant to say is out of all the choices the Mustang is just "it" for me. I have no illusions about its performance, hell, I am of the opinion you don't have to stretch the blanket when it comes to the P-51, its merits (and that of its pilots) stands on its own.

That said, I still find all the other fighters interesting and in their own way works of art.

 

[airminded88]

Well put Petter Gunn.
It's not difficult to like the P-51 unless you are extremely biased against it and all Allied-built equipment and the opposite is also true.
I just wish there was more equilibrium in the wold but I digress.
The Mustang does not need any embellishment whatsoever. It carries an admirable legacy behind it but its limitations as with every single prop-driven fighter to come out of WWII should always be kept in perspective.

 

[BiffF15]

To speed or not to speed...

There are couple of things at play here, already touched on but important none the less. The summation being what tools do you have and when / how to use them.

Speed: Speed in the WW2 fighter world comes from (for the most part) two sources or a combo of them. Those being aerodynamics and power. I'm not getting into the which prop is better, just looking at the power as stemming from the prop, engine, fuel as a group. The P-51A was noticeable faster than it's Allison counterparts due to some serious attention to aerodynamic details. Side benefits being better fuel milage (if there is such a thing in a WW2 fighter), better acceleration and maybe better high speed handling, higher critical mach, and or higher ceiling. All tools.

Power: Bill touched on it, but the power available versus required. His example being, "So, if a P-51B-1 and Bf 109G6 at 25K are zipping along at the 109's max Power/top speed of say 390mph, the 109G6 is way behind the 51B-1 in Energy available when the 51 pilot moves from MP to WEP." In any situation if you have more power available than the guy you are fighting you have a tool he doesn't. Doesn't mean you will use it correctly, at the right time, or in the right place, it just means it's there.

Maneuverability: While the Zero had tremendous range, it also had serious maneuverability advantages over it's Allied adversaries. If you can do something in a turning fight noticeably better than your adversary it is an advantage (and or tool) to be used against him or his type.

Speed has it's uses in WW2. If you are going fast enough it seriously impedes or reduces the ability for the adversary to complete an intercept (and shoot you down). If you are offensive it allows you to avoid attacks, as well as opens opportunities for you to attack that your adversary doesn't have. If you get bounced (tapped in todays terms) it might give you an opportunity to roll over and exit the fight (bandit not in range but in the attack mode) do to your higher speed / faster acceleration) or it might slow down his intercept enough that you can drag him / the fight over in front of a friend who can then put your bandit out of action. It's also usable if you are able to exit a turning fight (engagement in todays terms) before he can bring his nose to bear on you to shoot (or employ in todays terms). This is a difficult one as you are using your eyes / experience to judge the distance and are betting with your life. If he starts to shoot, you can jink (bullet avoidance maneuver), turn back in, or continue.

Power, or excess is a good thing. There are predominately two types of dog fights (BFM / Basic Fighter Maneuvers) and those are rate or radius fights. Rate is how man degrees of turn you can sustain over time (generally longer ranged fights), versus the radius fight (closer ranged fights in which the gun could be used also called a nose position fight) which is how many degrees can you turn over the next few seconds. Excess power if used correctly will keep you out of a short range fight. Or it will give you an advantage in a close fight if used correctly. I have fought F-18's with the Eagle, and they are much more maneuverable than I was. However, if we got into a groveling match, I would try to work the fight into the vertical since I have more power than he does. Get above him, open distance between you (aka turning room), then drop down while bringing the nose to bear so as to employ weapons. Also in a longer range fight, against an F-4, F-5, Mirage, F-16 (depending on it's configuration), if the guy can't shoot me then I'm going to play the rate game as it made for a longer life span. Same goes in WW2. If you are in a rate fight (trying to turn more degrees per second over time), you need to keep your speed up. An example is a guy attempts to shoot you, overshoots and his nose is stuck in lag (not able to bring it into lead due to your turning and his performance). You keep your speed up at or towards best rate speed, and maintain that while watching him. If he starts sliding from the back of your canopy towards the front he is losing that fight so don't change what you are doing if the fight allows (does he have a buddy about to jump you, does gas allow). Over time (unless he changes the fight) you will reel him in to arrive at his 6 o'clock with overtake ready to employ / shoot. If he elects to low yo-you shortly after over shooting (over rotate or dig under) then all you have to do is over rotate to keep him near the horizon (your perspective) and he will probably not get to a gun employment opportunity. That last maneuver will build angles between you, hopefully allowing for an separation (exit of fight).

Hopefully not too much detail. We look at the charts and they tell us a tremendous amount, but only at that one slice of time. We have seen where one airplane will have an advantage over another yet still lose. It could be the pilot didn't have the required situational awareness, or he lost sight for a moment, and loses in the end. Better plane, lesser plane, it doesn't matter if you don't use it well. In the case of the P-51BCD versus the Fw-190D-9 they seem very well (evenly) matched until you add in the Mustang flew from England, fought for 30 minutes, then flew back.

The big picture is speed, maneuverability, range, weapons, the pilots skill, are all tools. Use them better than your adversary, even if he has advantages, and you should be successful.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[Greyman]

The big picture is speed, maneuverability, range, weapons, the pilots skill ...

Not looks?!

 

[pbehn]

from another angle it looks very unfriendly
.

 

[Peter Gunn]

I'll see your one and raise you three...

 

[tomo pauk]

...
P.S. It is off-subject, but from your signature it appears you live in Poland. What is the Polish Air Force experience with the F-16? Do they like it or not? Maybe a dedicated answer in the modern forum?

I live in Croatia. My avatar pic is our MiG-21 2-seater 'Kockica' ('small box'). A token number of MiG-21s represent a pale shade of what we could use, money being scarce due to inept and/or corrupted governments of the last 3 decades and counting.

 

[CORSNING]

Thank you Biff. Always glad to read your insight from first hand knowledge.
Now then, speed is life. From top speed for escaping/catching, climbing speed
to gain altitude, acceleration into a roll, diving speed for escaping/attacking,
turning speed (time)...etc. Speed is life. I agree that top speed is not everything.
The Me 163 and 262 proved that. But in there case, it was definitely something.
Top speed is what made aircraft like the Mustang I, Ia and Mosquito so very
important. They could get in, do their job and get out without being intercepted
most of the time.
The high speed of the B-29 is one of the main reasons its interception was so
difficult.
Combat speed is another great asset.
Combat speed: The maximum speed at which an aircraft retains its full
maneuverability to the degree that it does not harm its structure and
is still fully functional at a competitive level to its adversaries.

 

[CORSNING]

You are the man Tomo. I am so glad you hang in there tuff buddy.

 

[tomo pauk]

Thank you. Wife and me are tough puppies, have had some luck, and family support from both sides.

 

[CORSNING]

 

[GregP]

Hey Tomo,

Couldn't tell from the Avatar (size, not quality). Always liked the MiG-21 myself. It has a lot of good qualities except for range and low-speed handling.

Air Forces aren't cheap to run! That's for sure.

I doubt you have cornered the market on a government the people aren't all that fond of. There are probably a hundred plus countries or more who feel similarly about their own government.

I think if I were running the government, and my country had a population of one, I might really like the government.

 

[BiffF15]

I live in Croatia. My avatar pic is our MiG-21 2-seater 'Kockica' ('small box'). A token number of MiG-21s represent a pale shade of what we could use, money being scarce due to inept and/or corrupted governments of the last 3 decades and counting.

Tomo,

My family and I just returned from your "neck of the woods". We did just over a week in Rome, Naples & Amalfi. Is Croatia terrain similar to Italy?

Cheers,
Biff

 

[Peter Gunn]

Not sure if this is the place for this, but it's a Mustang thread so...

Was late for a physical therapy appointment at this massive medical complex, had to stop for gas, couldn't get a parking spot, when I finally did, I'm walking through this huge underground parking structure when a minivan drove past with "P51 PLT" as its license plate. Well that's cool, so when I get to the elevator/entrance I look at the front and he has a Fourth Fighter Group Assn. plate on the front, that's when I looked at the driver, realized he was an elderly gentleman, I pointed to the plate and gave him a "thumbs up" which he returned with a grin.

Well, I had to know so I walked over and spoke with him for a few minutes, turns out it's Lieutenant John B. "Jack" Swan and his wife Jan. Got to speak with him for a few minutes, the look on his face when when he mentioned getting a brand new D-20 when he got to Debden was priceless. Guy is still sharp as a tack, wife and I are taking them both to lunch on Saturday. Just one of those moments (increasingly rare now) that you run into a WWII vet that I thought I'd share. He's 93 and is in good health except for his shoulder (we have that in common at least), looking forward to lunch with them tomorrow.

Cheers

 

[tomo pauk]

Tomo,

My family and I just returned from your "neck of the woods". We did just over a week in Rome, Naples & Amalfi. Is Croatia terrain similar to Italy?

Cheers,
Biff

Pretty similar, though we have more islands and are less densely populated (less towns/cities per square mile). Italy also looks more cultivated, too.

 

[airminded88]

Not sure if this is the place for this, but it's a Mustang thread so...

Was late for a physical therapy appointment at this massive medical complex, had to stop for gas, couldn't get a parking spot, when I finally did, I'm walking through this huge underground parking structure when a minivan drove past with "P51 PLT" as its license plate. Well that's cool, so when I get to the elevator/entrance I look at the front and he has a Fourth Fighter Group Assn. plate on the front, that's when I looked at the driver, realized he was an elderly gentleman, I pointed to the plate and gave him a "thumbs up" which he returned with a grin.

Well, I had to know so I walked over and spoke with him for a few minutes, turns out it's Lieutenant John B. "Jack" Swan and his wife Jan. Got to speak with him for a few minutes, the look on his face when when he mentioned getting a brand new D-20 when he got to Debden was priceless. Guy is still sharp as a tack, wife and I are taking them both to lunch on Saturday. Just one of those moments (increasingly rare now) that you run into a WWII vet that I thought I'd share. He's 93 and is in good health except for his shoulder (we have that in common at least), looking forward to lunch with them tomorrow.

Cheers

Finest company to enjoy a meal and a pleasant chat with!
Hopefully everything went well.