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Yes P47,P38 was good weapons systems.The P51 was excellent. Especially the first 2 were big and expensive , used a lot of fuel so theywere good at many roles. How good?
They were good enough to not stop or switch production to another aircraft. Also, don't forget the US was supplying equipment to the Pacific theater as well as lend lease equipment. And with deep pockets you can "afford" to make expensive equipment.
The P51A in Raf use gave good service at armed reconnaissance but when intercepted by contemporary FWs was nothing special. I repeat it was the 2 stage supercharger that made the 51 special( and the lack of it in the 190)
I thought we were talking P-51D versus the Fw-190D (Name of the thread?). Also, "nothing special" means close to equal? Also, realize the P-51A was predominately used in a recce role, which means singletons, which means easier kills...
I directly question the ability of the p38l to execute low level roles when facing D9s with ADI ,decent building quality and decent pilots. Against D13s or Ta152H would be in trouble at all altitude
Confirm when Fw-190D9s actually flew with an operational ADI with fluid in the tanks? Also, build quality was what is was in a wartime environment for the side crouched on the defense. Reference my earlier remarks asking why it was that Germany was getting bombed... There was something along the lines of 40 D13s delivered (my favorite longnose variant) and had absolutely no measurable impact on the war. Are we talking what really happened or what could have happened?
I also question the ability of the P47 N to perform low and medium level roles against the latest members of the Dora family, especially if we provide both types with the same fuel
But the point is the Allied side had tons of better fuel, and the Axis side had almost no fuel of any type. The P-47N was made to go further than it's earlier versions, and oh by the way was a better performer. I would imagine flying from Tinian to Japan and back in a plane with a motor known to take extreme damage and still get you home might be a good thing.
I don t credit the P51 as a great fighter bomber. Both in ww2 and in korea ,proved so vulnerable to flak that it s unsuitable for the role.
You are a person of great scientific knowledge, but Brown flew them all! I believe his opinion has some weight!
I agree with you that Browns opine carries some serious weight, but no one is perfect. I don't agree with some of his findings or assumptions, and that's okay to.
I believe the 190 was a decent weapon system too.it was small, cheap, very easy to be serviced, low pilot workload .
Yes, it was a good product for a country struggling to survive. Cheap as Germany teetered on the edge of collapse, and low pilot workload since you were putting guys in it who would barely qualify as a pilot, let alone a fighter pilot with a chance of survival.
Could be an air superiority fighter, a bomber interceptor, a CAS aircraft,a torpedo bomber, a long range Fighter bomber(190G), an anti tank aircraft, a recce aircraft. It was proven that additionally to the standard internal fuel capacity could have wing tanks and rear fuselage tank. When it finally recieved a 2 stage supercharger was almost equal to the latest alleid fighters
I say almost, because it still retained the obsolete wing profile
However, per my previous post it was designed to go 30 laps in the race, and the Mustang was designed to go 100 laps, and that they were very close in performance is a testament to the North American design team.
And Rolls Royce
Cheers
Steve
Yes P47,P38 was good weapons systems.The P51 was excellent. Especially the first 2 were big and expensive , used a lot of fuel so theywere good at many roles. How good?
The P51A in Raf use gave good service at armed reconnaissance but when intercepted by contemporary FWs was nothing special. I repeat it was the 2 stage supercharger that made the 51 special( and the lack of it in the 190)
I directly question the ability of the p38l to execute low level roles when facing D9s with ADI ,decent building quality and decent pilots. Against D13s or Ta152H would be in trouble at all altitude
I also question the ability of the P47 N to perform low and medium level roles against the latest members of the Dora family, especially if we provide both types with the same fuel
I don t credit the P51 as a great fighter bomber. Both in ww2 and in korea ,proved so vulnerable to flak that it s unsuitable for the role.
You are a person of great scientific knowledge, but Brown flew them all! I believe his opinion has some weight!
I believe the 190 was a decent weapon system too.it was small, cheap, very easy to be serviced, low pilot workload .
Could be an air superiority fighter, a bomber interceptor, a CAS aircraft,a torpedo bomber, a long range Fighter bomber(190G), an anti tank aircraft, a recce aircraft. It was proven that additionally to the standard internal fuel capacity could have wing tanks and rear fuselage tank. When it finally recieved a 2 stage supercharger was almost equal to the latest alleid fighters
I say almost, because it still retained the obsolete wing profile
The normal jumo 213A could not use the C3 fuel. Some late D9s, on the eastern front, may have used some c3, and that produced the best performance for the D9. As far as i know even the late war C3 was inferior to the 100/150 fuel that the americans had.
The 190 was carrying 150 kgr of armor.The p51?
P51 did not have turbo but did have 2 stage supercharger.The 190C turbo was not produced mainlybecause the lack of raw materials
The surfaces quality of the p51 was far better.German factories simply coul not spend time polishing and sanding the wings. Actually did not even have the rubber to seal the gap between the engine and the wing. And they were obligated to apply camouflage paint adding weight and drag.
The p51 clashed vs anything axis had with major advantages: Massive superiority in numbers, massive fuel advantage( 150 vs german 95 vs japanese 87), better pilots, ULTRA supporting its operations.
About the answer I figured you'd give, Tomo. And don't worry about the reply. I don't care.
You seem to be on a hair trigger and want to fight all the time, for no reason. Why? I don't. I have nothing impolite to say to you. Generally, I like your posts and consider you one of the solid, knowledgeable members here. Why can't you be at least friendly?
...
Seems like D-9 was succesfully tested with C3 fuel: link (pdf)
As far as i know the vast majority of the D9 units did not had the option to use the C3 even if available
Already in 1943 the German C3 fuel was rated as (for rich rating) 'better than 125 grade' (>125 grade) by Allied 'chemical intelligence':
http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/Tom Reels/Linked/A5464/A5464-0638-0654 Item 6A.pdf
As far as i know the C3 never reached the quality of the american 150 octane fuel, and in any case, C3 production was so limited that several powerful engines that required C3 did not enter production
Weight - I don't know. It carried front and back metal armor, plus front bullet-proof glass.
The British used 'painted' Mustangs, IIRC there was barely any speed loss.
Well, i have read many times that several types of aircrafts removed the camouflage paint because of the weight and drag
The way Germans were installing engine cowlings, ie. those were attached to the engine ('motorfeste Motorverkleidung') that, even when good rubber was used, was draggier than the Allied system where the engine cowling was attached to the 'fixed' parts of engine compartment ('Zellenfeste Motorverkleidung'). Even if it enabled the 'power egg' engine installation easier to design. People at Focke Wulf judged that way of cowling will gain them 25 km/h on the Ta-152, for example.
Dietmar Harmann in his Ta 152 book, in the chapter about future improvements, speaks about a new "integrated" cowling. Is that the same with what you describe? In which source did you read the 25km/h possible gain? If true , means that the production cowling was terrible. Generally the "power egg" system did made production and servicing easier, but caused terrible performance loss because not only, as you say , it was draggier it was also heavier. That s way the D series had the rear fuselage extension
Ah, no. The Allied fuel, before mid-1944, was the 100/130 (lean/rich). German fuel was 96/130+ (lean/rich). Japanese were using 92 oct + water-alc injection.
Very few BF109 units used C3, the vast majority used B4. The same with the Dora units. The Anton used C3, but only after mid 44 took advantage of it, and even then, the terrible supercharger crippled its performance
A KI 84 with the homare engine designed for 150 octane fuel would be amazing dog fighter!Even with C3 would be very good
The great numerical advantage is also a myth, at least before mid-1944. Eg. during the big week, USAF used 73-150 P-51s, that did more damage to the LW than 750+ of P-47s and P-38s combined, vs. hundreds of LW 1-engine fighters
I respect your opinion but i simply disagree. RAF and the american air force massively outnumbered LW fighters. The orders of battle and the number of sorties prove this for every period of the war after 1940.
The British used 'painted' Mustangs, IIRC there was barely any speed loss.
Greg, Tomo, can you two kiss and make up?