drgondog
Major
Damn - you punched him out too fast!
Fw-190 vs Spit/P-51/P-47
- Thread starter DerAdlerIstGelandet
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #103
Like I said, anyone is welcome here until they become pompous insulting assholes.
drgondog
Major
well I only get two out of three per post
- Thread starter
- #105
Yeah but everyone loves you. 
Here is the order I would rate these fighters:
#1 FW190 if I was Luftwaffe pilot who flew the FW190.
#1 Spitfire if I was an RAF pilot who flew the Spitfire.
#1 P51 if I was a USAAF pilot who flew the P51.
All the best,
Crumpp
Gents,
Another excellent thread! Having flown the Eagle for a long time this conversation struck a very familiar cord.
Biff
"You love a lot of things if you live around them, but there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, nor any before or any after, that is as lovely as a great airplane, and the men who love them are faithful to them even though they leave them for others. A man has only one virginity to lose in fighters, and if it's a lovely plane he loses it to, there his heart will ever be."
Ernest Hemingway
August, 1944
#1 FW190 if I was Luftwaffe pilot who flew the FW190.
#1 Spitfire if I was an RAF pilot who flew the Spitfire.
#1 P51 if I was a USAAF pilot who flew the P51.
All the best,
Crumpp
Gents,
Another excellent thread! Having flown the Eagle for a long time this conversation struck a very familiar cord.
Biff
"You love a lot of things if you live around them, but there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, nor any before or any after, that is as lovely as a great airplane, and the men who love them are faithful to them even though they leave them for others. A man has only one virginity to lose in fighters, and if it's a lovely plane he loses it to, there his heart will ever be."
Ernest Hemingway
August, 1944
Here is some food for thought on which A/C is the "best". First, you can rack and stack them by numbers, charts, and diagrams. Or, you can quote combat records and statistics (what history Hollywood tend to favor). Or you can look at them through a pilots eyes and experiences. Air to air combat between fighters is won by the guy who brings his strengths to bear against his adversaries weakness. This is how a "lesser" performing A/C defeats a "better" one. Have you ever seen a little guy beat the sh!t out of a bigger guy. He is not as strong, has less reach or weight to bring to bear, but in the end he wins. Why? He uses his strengths against his the other guys weakness. Sun Tzu said, "know you yourself and your enemy and you will know the outcome of every battle".
More to follow..
More to follow..
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Each plane of type A, or type B, has almost indentical capabilities, hence the discussion covering the best fighter, or best bomber, or what not.
The pilots, from the same country, flying in same squadron, are different in their capabilities, often by a large margin. We have thread(s) covering the pilots/crews, and those are other threads, not this one
The pilots, from the same country, flying in same squadron, are different in their capabilities, often by a large margin. We have thread(s) covering the pilots/crews, and those are other threads, not this one
Tomo,
Excellent points and I agree as I have experienced what you speak of personally. My point with the previous post was that thrust to weight, rate of climb, turn rate radius, wing loading all have a place but do not encompass the entire "package" of plane pilot. Each plane has strengths and weakness, plus's or minus's, just as pilots do. The plane and the pilot is what one encounters, not just the A/C. The pilot's proficiency and skill are also a large part.
By the way, I have around 20 sorties against the Laage Fulcrums complete with HMD and AA-11. Outstanding guys and a lot of fun both in the air and on the ground!
Biff
Excellent points and I agree as I have experienced what you speak of personally. My point with the previous post was that thrust to weight, rate of climb, turn rate radius, wing loading all have a place but do not encompass the entire "package" of plane pilot. Each plane has strengths and weakness, plus's or minus's, just as pilots do. The plane and the pilot is what one encounters, not just the A/C. The pilot's proficiency and skill are also a large part.
By the way, I have around 20 sorties against the Laage Fulcrums complete with HMD and AA-11. Outstanding guys and a lot of fun both in the air and on the ground!
Biff
Okay gents let me take a swing at this thread. First, my background is both Mil and Commercial pilot, with 23 years of former, and 14 years of the latter. Mil time centers around 16 years (approx 2700 hrs) of flying the F15A-D, with 15 of that in operational squadrons (not training units). As a US Eagle Driver we spend all of our time training for the air to air arena, and as such have trained with / against all the major US Ally fighters. The one thing I have found that was a serious trend, regardless of which country or type of A/C, is that if a guy was good in his / her jet then that is the one they wanted to go to war in. That verifies what Crumpp stated early hence the familiar cord. However, the other thing I learned is that when the A/C are close in performance or capabilities, then it came down to the pilot. I have done enough similar fighting to see that some guys will almost always win, regardless who they fight, while others it comes down to who makes the least amount of errors that day in that fight (dog fighting / BFM - Basic Fighter Maneuvers). The key to winning in one of these engagements, particularly when it's dissimilar, is to know what the other plane can do first and foremost as compared to yours. That allows you to have a plan prior to ever taking off. If you are inventing sh!t on the fly the odds are you will lose. If however, you have several game plans up your sleeve, and are comfortable with knowing WHEN to execute, as well as HOW, then the outcome should favor you. A fighter pilot of credibility can tell you the strengths and weaknesses of his A/C as compared to his adversary, the preferred tactics techniques for fighting the other guy as well as when it's time to leave (always leave yourself an out). The tactics we use as Eagle / Viper / (insert any quality fighter) guys have been proven from fight after fight, year after year, and takes into account our strengths and weaknesses, the other guys tactics, strengths weaknesses. Other factors (not inclusive by any means) come into play, which include mission specifics, fuel considerations, and weapons.
An example would a guy tasked to protect his airfield. He would have the benefit of getting to sleep in, take off late (as compared to me who has to fly several hours to get to his field), and he has a full tank of gas, can fight till almost empty, and should he be unlucky enough to have to jump out he is over friendly terrain. The defender in this instance has the benefit of fighting over his home, but then that's not good because the enemy is taking the fight to you versus the better option of taking it to him.
I hope this isn't too long winded for the forum. I have to catch a flight, more to follow and I promise I will get to picking an airplane!
Biff
An example would a guy tasked to protect his airfield. He would have the benefit of getting to sleep in, take off late (as compared to me who has to fly several hours to get to his field), and he has a full tank of gas, can fight till almost empty, and should he be unlucky enough to have to jump out he is over friendly terrain. The defender in this instance has the benefit of fighting over his home, but then that's not good because the enemy is taking the fight to you versus the better option of taking it to him.
I hope this isn't too long winded for the forum. I have to catch a flight, more to follow and I promise I will get to picking an airplane!
Biff
FalkeEins
Senior Airman
Shortround6
Major General
From this site: indexneu
FW 190 A-0/V6g Leistungsdaten Startmasse* 3500
FW 190 A-1 Leistungsdaten Startmasse* 3775
FW 190 A-2 Leistungsdaten Startmasse* 3850
FW 190 A-3 Leistungsdaten Startmasse* 3995
FW 190 A-8 Leistungsdaten Startmasse* 4350
I took the difference between the A-1 and the A-8.
I would be interested in finding out what was included in that 4,700kg.
If MTOW is maximum take off weight does that mean max clean or max with under wing/ fuselage stores which is not a fair comparison to a an A-1 or A-2 which, as far as I know, didn't carry anything external.
Some figures in an old book by William Green for the A-3-- 2905kg for empty weight, 3231kg for empty equipped and 3986kg for loaded. I certainly am not going to argue over the 9kg difference in loaded weight between Green's book and that website.
FalkeEins
Senior Airman
....not a fair comparison? ..all I'm demonstrating - as per the review that you found so ridiculous - is that weight difference between early and late Fw 190 variants on what was basically the same engine- for argument's sake - could be as high as 2,000 kg, give or take a few hundred....and Rodeike in his Jagdflugzeug 190 book quotes the A-8/R2 Sturmjäger at 4,974 kg Fluggewicht (inc Sturm armour of 200 kgs, cannon another 100 etc etc and full belly tank ..) ..all told that's rather closer to 2,000 kg difference than 675 kg....
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
Just a thought after reading and listening to many accounts of WW2 flying I think it would be a rare occasion when any of these aircraft took off without being over gross weight and not by just a few kg-lbs, although I recall one exception of a Malta Spit pilot who removed his mirror and arnour to save weight,
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Shortround6
Major General
I like the "could be as high as 2,000 kg" bit.
From the original post in question:
" In the battles fought high over the Reich during 1944 the P-51 was 'cutting edge' while the Fw 190 was a lumbering bludgeon totally unsuited for fighter vs. fighter combat. The A-8 variant - produced in greater numbers than all the other FW 190 sub-types put together - weighed in some 2,000 kg heavier than the first Fw 190s to see service over the Channel during 1941 while powered by essentially the same BMW 801 engine."
Now if we take a STANDARD A-8 is it a "lumber bludgeon totally unsuited for fighter vs. fighter combat" or can we take an A-8 and load it down with enough crap to make it a lumbering bludgeon? Not the same thing is it?
This poster, to me anyway, seemed to be saying that ALL A-8s weighed weighed 2,000kg more than the first SERVICE (not prototype) FW 190s.
IF the weight of the A-1 is as listed in the link I gave (3775kg) then for that poster to be 'accurate', I believe he claimed it was 100% accurate, the A-8 would have to weigh 5775kg at take-off or about 365kg less than a loaded but clean P-47C.
Now I did make a rather stupid math error and the difference from the A-1 to the A-8 in source listed should be 575kg not 675kg but if you are asking me if 4974kg given by you ( a 1199kg increase from an A-1) is closer to 575kg or to 2000 kg I would have to say it is closer to the 575 kg increase. Off by 624kg instead of 801 kg.
Lighthunmust
Banned
If you want to see P-47s shooting down P-51s instead of FW-190s, set your TiVo to TCM HD for Sunday 1:00AM MST.
drgondog
Major
Shortround MTOW or max GW should be the same reference - litterally do not exceed this airframe/stores/fuel combination on a standard day - and woe be to the fearless that ignore the rule on a hot day with a short runway..
BamBamNaples
Recruit
First when comparing these aircraft you need to look at their actual roles! I have the unique insight from two of my Uncles who each flew Spits and Mustangs... The P-51 D was designed to escort long range bombers and gave up performance in order to be more heavily built. The Spit and most other fighter/interceptors of WWII were built to dogfight and intercept other aircraft... In most cases the American Aircraft were underpowered at first and had more stringent building requirements which is why they were heavier... The P-51D did its job better than any other aircraft; And so did the spitfire! The later variants of the Spitfire, XIV etc. all had more powerful Griffon and Merlin engines in them. So, in combination with the lighter weight its no wonder it outperformed the "D".. However, if you look at the final Variant of the P-51, P-51G/H which was designed more as a fighter/interceptor where they shaved of weight and added the more powerful Merlin and Griffon engines the P-51 performance now tops all the other Spits and I believe all other prop fighters in top speed and rate of climb...
The P-51D MAX rate of climb was approx. 3,600 ft/ min, Spitfire Mk 21 4,800 ft/min, the MK XIV 5,000 ft/min, and the P-51G/H 5,200 ft/min
Top speed for the P-51G 495 mph, H 487 mph, Mk 21 455 mph, Mk XIV 443 mph, P-51D 437 mph...
They were both great aircraft and we were lucky they were fighting on the same side... In conclusion I would think PILOT ability and experience would win the day...
