- Thread starter
- #81
I have to agree and that has actually been said here so many times but it never is actually realized by anyone.
Fw-190 vs Spit/P-51/P-47
- Thread starter DerAdlerIstGelandet
- Start date
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The disparity in developmental time frame between the two fighters which represents a good four years of aviation progress. The high performance P-51 Mustang was conceived during 1940/41 and didn't really come into its own until 1943 over Europe while the FW-190 'Butcher Bird' was a 1937 project and no thoroughbred seven years later. Tank was a WW I infantry soldier turned aircraft designer - his creation was a 'workhorse', powered by a massive air-cooled radial engine and suited for a range of operating environments and mission types - lethal in its early incarnations but rather long in the tooth for 1943-1945. In the battles fought high over the Reich during 1944 the P-51 was 'cutting edge' while the Fw 190 was a lumbering bludgeon totally unsuited for fighter vs. fighter combat. The A-8 variant - produced in greater numbers than all the other FW 190 sub-types put together - weighed in some 2,000 kg heavier than the first Fw 190s to see service over the Channel during 1941 while powered by essentially the same BMW 801 engine. Fw 190s were generally deployed as bomber destroyers - only the odd Staffel of Fw 190s might be deployed as cover against P-51s and these were generally machines stripped of their heavy armament and flown by the handful of pilots that had achieved successes against the P-51s.
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
Good grief.
Well done for plagiarising inaccurate information from a public review on amazon.com.
- Thread starter
- #87
As for you suspension comment for telling the truth:
No one gets suspended for stating any fact or opinion, people do get suspended for being assholes though...
As for you speaking the truth? Are you sure about that. As for your comment about "American weapons surpassing anyone elses", you might want to do some research first. Anyone who seriously studies the subject will know that no country had a monopoly on superiority. The US did some things better, the British did somethings better, the Russians did some things better and the Germans some things better for example.
Also if you have a problem with people on this site (as you call them jealous) then go someplace else. I am sure you can find a better place, that more suits your need.
How old are you, if you don't mind me asking?
No one gets suspended for stating any fact or opinion, people do get suspended for being assholes though...
As for you speaking the truth? Are you sure about that. As for your comment about "American weapons surpassing anyone elses", you might want to do some research first. Anyone who seriously studies the subject will know that no country had a monopoly on superiority. The US did some things better, the British did somethings better, the Russians did some things better and the Germans some things better for example.
Also if you have a problem with people on this site (as you call them jealous) then go someplace else. I am sure you can find a better place, that more suits your need.
How old are you, if you don't mind me asking?
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Shortround6
Major General
100% accurate?
What, pray tell, did they do to the A-8 to get it to weigh 2000kg (4400lbs) more than the A-1/A-2?
Some sources give the weight difference closer to 675kg. This far enough off that even mistaking pounds for kilograms doesn't excuse it.
If the rest of the "facts" are as "accurate" as the weight I am siding with Jabberwocky and adding a few extra eyerolls.
bud anderson on the subject
Bud Anderson on german aircraft
Which aircraft, the ME109 or the FW190 was the most formidable in combat?
In aerial combat it did not matter to me which type of enemy fighter I encountered. I felt that the Mustang could out perform both the ME109 and the FW190 and treated them pretty much the same. The FW190 had an air cooled radial engine and could probably take a little more damage than the liquid cooled ME109. I never encountered any of the twin engine fighters such as the ME110 ME 410 but it appeared to me that the guy that got there first shot down the most of them.
somewhere i read yeager said similar comments, i certain trust their opinion more than us wanan be's here, me included
Bud Anderson on german aircraft
Which aircraft, the ME109 or the FW190 was the most formidable in combat?
In aerial combat it did not matter to me which type of enemy fighter I encountered. I felt that the Mustang could out perform both the ME109 and the FW190 and treated them pretty much the same. The FW190 had an air cooled radial engine and could probably take a little more damage than the liquid cooled ME109. I never encountered any of the twin engine fighters such as the ME110 ME 410 but it appeared to me that the guy that got there first shot down the most of them.
somewhere i read yeager said similar comments, i certain trust their opinion more than us wanan be's here, me included
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
Ummmm...
Are we not forgetting that any fighter is only as good as its pilot?
Cheers
John
Are we not forgetting that any fighter is only as good as its pilot?
Cheers
John
Kryten
Senior Airman
And the tactical situation at the time!
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
In most cases yes...
Please re-read that statement. I'll also say they you're attitude is slowly pissing me off. I suggest you correct your malfucntion or your stay here will be very short.
here is from the history of the 20th fighter group, i am sure old cryboy know better than them too.
Transition to the P-51 (in Less than a Week)
77th FS tries out their new P-51Ds over the England.
By 22 July 1944, the 20th had completely transitioned to the new North American P-51 Mustang. Lieutenant Colonel Wilson equated the P-38 to flying an "airborne ice wagon," when compared to a P-51. With its extended range and horsepower, the P-51 helped sweep the last remnants of the Luftwaffe from the air. From mid-1944, many missions were flown unopposed by Axis aircraft.
During the first month of P-51 operations, pilots of the 20th FG demonstrated the increased air superiority of the Mustang by destroying 70 enemy aircraft. Their own losses numbered only 14 over the same period--a far better kill-to-loss ratio than they had achieved with the P-38. The increased range of the P-51 enabled group pilots to extend their coverage of European operations by two to three hours flying time. Standard flying time for a P-38 ran approximately four hours. Missions of six or seven hours were not uncommon for the P-51.
By November 1944, Allied air superiority had been so firmly established that the Luftwaffe attempted only two more full-scale interdiction missions against Allied bombers before the end of the war. On 2 November 1944, a German force of about 250 fighter aircraft intercepted 1,121 Eighth Air Force bombers and their fighter escort en route to the synthetic oil plants in Merseburg, Germany. In the ferocious air battle that followed, Eighth Air Force fighters destroyed 148 German planes, more than half the attacking force. Aircrews of the 20th Group contributed to the elimination of 33 enemy aircraft on that day. Lieutenant Colonel Robert P. Montgomery led the 20th's assault, destroyed three aircraft himself and was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for his performance.
Bomber escort missions by the 20th FG for the remaining eight weeks of 1944 met little German resistance. Weather conditions, limited the group's participation in the Battle of the Bulge. Nevertheless, Eighth Air Force (including the 20th) bombing and ground strafing of German road and railway lines of communication effectively strangled the enemy to death, and by 10 January 1945 the German army had begun its retreat to the Rhine.
The Luftwaffe's Last Push
Germany launched its final major air defense operation on 19 January 1945. This last full-scale attack against Allied bombers lasted approximately 20 minutes. In those 20 minutes, over the German homeland, aircraft of the Eighth Air Force downed a total of 121 out of 214 attacking aircraft without the single loss of a fighter aircraft. Only nine B-17s, two percent of the total force, were lost.
Transition to the P-51 (in Less than a Week)
77th FS tries out their new P-51Ds over the England.
By 22 July 1944, the 20th had completely transitioned to the new North American P-51 Mustang. Lieutenant Colonel Wilson equated the P-38 to flying an "airborne ice wagon," when compared to a P-51. With its extended range and horsepower, the P-51 helped sweep the last remnants of the Luftwaffe from the air. From mid-1944, many missions were flown unopposed by Axis aircraft.
During the first month of P-51 operations, pilots of the 20th FG demonstrated the increased air superiority of the Mustang by destroying 70 enemy aircraft. Their own losses numbered only 14 over the same period--a far better kill-to-loss ratio than they had achieved with the P-38. The increased range of the P-51 enabled group pilots to extend their coverage of European operations by two to three hours flying time. Standard flying time for a P-38 ran approximately four hours. Missions of six or seven hours were not uncommon for the P-51.
By November 1944, Allied air superiority had been so firmly established that the Luftwaffe attempted only two more full-scale interdiction missions against Allied bombers before the end of the war. On 2 November 1944, a German force of about 250 fighter aircraft intercepted 1,121 Eighth Air Force bombers and their fighter escort en route to the synthetic oil plants in Merseburg, Germany. In the ferocious air battle that followed, Eighth Air Force fighters destroyed 148 German planes, more than half the attacking force. Aircrews of the 20th Group contributed to the elimination of 33 enemy aircraft on that day. Lieutenant Colonel Robert P. Montgomery led the 20th's assault, destroyed three aircraft himself and was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for his performance.
Bomber escort missions by the 20th FG for the remaining eight weeks of 1944 met little German resistance. Weather conditions, limited the group's participation in the Battle of the Bulge. Nevertheless, Eighth Air Force (including the 20th) bombing and ground strafing of German road and railway lines of communication effectively strangled the enemy to death, and by 10 January 1945 the German army had begun its retreat to the Rhine.
The Luftwaffe's Last Push
Germany launched its final major air defense operation on 19 January 1945. This last full-scale attack against Allied bombers lasted approximately 20 minutes. In those 20 minutes, over the German homeland, aircraft of the Eighth Air Force downed a total of 121 out of 214 attacking aircraft without the single loss of a fighter aircraft. Only nine B-17s, two percent of the total force, were lost.
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
Might want to check your sources a bit more closely.
From the official Combat Chronology of the US Army Air Forces:
And, just so you know:
What it appears to me is the FW-190 and ME-109 were good airplanes for their time. I imagine they were both designed in the mid 1930's. Technology was advancing quickly then, and the P-51 was an early 1940's design. Add to that the USA had just about unlimited resources while Germany had been at war for a number of years. A similar situation existed with Japan. The Zero was a great airplane for its time. I would guess many more P-51's were lost on the search and destroy part of their mission and flak then fighters. Also consider that the Germans were in desperation mode by 1943 and they put into service aircraft that weren't really ready. Even more to consider is the P-51 dominated the skies deep in enemy territory. Something no other fighter of that time could do, it's obvious what the best fighter was, the P-51. We can bicker about small facts, but I think it's pretty obvious the facts.
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
Don't guess, do research! There is plenty of (freely available) data out there.
MOST WW2 fighter aircraft had more losses to flak and other causes (accident, collisions, mechanical failures, friendly fire, weather or just lost) than to other aircraft in combat.
P-51 8th A/F losses know to have occurred due to fighters were approximately 350 to 370 aircraft. Flak losses are pegged somewhere between 590 and 680. So the ratio would be somewhere between 2:1 to 1.6:1.
This is somewhat higher than for 8th AF P-47s and P-38s, but give the longer operational timeline of these aircraft in the ETO, and the curtailing of Luftwaffe strength post May-June 1944, its unsurprising that P-51 losses to flak are proportionally higher.
Situation is always as important in measuring combat performance as the actual numbers themselves.
So what if you want a fighter to perform interceptions at 25,000 ft. Or bomber destroying duties. Or double as a ground pounder.
Is the P-51 the best then?
- Thread starter
- #99
Goodbye jhawk, you are the now officially the weakest link. Go play on someone elses forum you troll. Once you start insulting other members of this forum you are not welcome here.
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Compared to you I do you dumbass, but it seems you're too stupid to heed a warning and one of my fellow mods kicked your sorry ass into cyberspace.
