G.I.s Massacre Of Waffen SS At Dachau...

Discussion in 'WW2 General' started by Maestro, Nov 26, 2006.

  1. Maestro

    Maestro Active Member

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  2. Bullockracing

    Bullockracing Member

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    Interesting - shameful at the atrocities the Allies committed, although overcome by emotions, sure wish they'd have taken the moral high ground...
     
  3. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    It was poetic justice to kill them at the symbol of what nazism was all about.

    I have no sympathy for the dead SS. Just contempt.

    I only wish the inmates could have had the chance in getting in a few shots or bayonets into them. But they were probably too weak to do that.
     
  4. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
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    I cannot fathom the emotions that I would have experienced if I had been one of the liberators. The sights, sounds...smells. I think that I too would have transformed into Vishnu. Kill them all. A sad commentary on how low mankind can sink into depravity.

    ...and there are those that claim this was all Allied propaganda.
     
  5. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    While I have no remorse for the killed SS and think that they got what they deserved I too disagree only because as a former US soldier I believe in not doing lowering yourself to the standard of what you were fighting against. A crime is a crime. The SS guards should have been tried and found guilty of there crimes and then sentenced accordingly.
     
  6. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    Deradler, I'm sure if you were with the Army in WW2, you would have been just as disgusted with what you were seeing in the camps and also would have not thought twice about giving the camp guards a taste of their own medicine.
     
  7. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    slightly OT but the Saddam sypathizers go along with the idiotic idea that others killed Iraqui's, tortured, maimed those within Baghadad and of course what has happened to the Kurdish element with chemicals, etc.......

    just fantasy ............ yeah right.

    man will do evil to man till the end of the times, it's his sinful nature

    what is really warped and what we cannot really get a handle on is that so many of the Wehrmachts soldiers never knew what was going on back at home showing the efficientcy and deadliness of the Nazi internal war machine
     
  8. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    The guards at the camps knew what was going on.

    Not the "real" soldiers out in the front doing the fighting.
     
  9. k9kiwi

    k9kiwi Member

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    Dont worry. my oops
     
  10. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    Sys, yes I know that, my point was is after war all Wehrmacht soldiers were treated in the same fashion, as Nazi war criminals, the stigma was there, and veterans that I have interviewed over the many years feel a total shame for what their country did at home while they were out shedding their own blood in the supposed defense of a mad man's philosphy
     
  11. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    Ofcourse I can not say how I would have reacted back then if I had been in that situation. Probably no different than they did. I am only speaking of how I would have handled it with my frame of mind as I do now.
     
  12. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    I remember reading my Grandfathers war diaries and reading how he was forced to march into a Concentration camp by Russian Soldiers and he was horrified by what he saw there for the first time. He said that not a single time did he witness the horrors that he saw there at any time on the front. He last words in the diary were about they were all going to go to hell.
     
  13. m kenny

    m kenny Banned

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    This 'myth' has been discussed many times on various forums. Here is a detailed sample response from AHF.

    Axis History Forum :: View topic - Massacre of SS POWs at Dachau


    "We’ve discussed the liberation of Dachau at length in a recent thread. Allow me to uncover some facts from underneath the mountain of garbage the events in question are buried under:

    1) During the liberation of the Dachau KZ, troops of the 45th and 42nd infantry divisions did engage in several unpremeditated, spontaneous shootings of SS troops during the liberation.

    2) There are 3 main documented incidents
    – the death train (5 SS men killed)
    – the coal yard (17 SS men killed)
    – Tower B (10-17 SS men killed)

    3) In addition, there are several unconfirmed incidents in which single SS men were killed by US troops and KZ inmates BUT the total number of SS men killed during that day that I can determine, cross checking with multiple sources, is probably no more than 100. Note that my estimate is greater than Herbert Marcuse ("Legacies of Dachau" p52, estimates 40-50 SS killed) but is much less that Buechner’s specious 560.

    4) The "560 SS troops" at Dachau is first mentioned in Nerin Gun’s 1966 book The Day of the Americans. Andrew Mollo used this book and this number in his 1980 After the Battle article about the liberation, which Buechner used in his 1986 book The Hour of the Avenger

    5) Gun’s book however, is not 100% accurate. He claims that the camp was surrendered by a LSSAH "Lt. Skodzensky" (a man who doesn’t exist) and that a Sherman tank knocked out the gunfire from Tower B (there was no Sherman tank at the liberation) Gun writes on p.60 that "Skodzensky" claimed there were 560 garrison troops under his command. Virtually all accounts that use the "560" number come from this statement attributed to a non-existent SS officer. Gun’s book isn’t even consistent, for on page 66 he quotes the April 30 SHAEF report about the Dachau liberation which states that "300 SS camp guards were quickly neutralized"

    6) The REAL SS officer who surrendered the camp was a guy named Wicker. Wicker (note: some English-language accounts spell the name as "Wickert") has often been described as a "Waffen-SS" officer who arrived from the "Eastern Front" on April 27th. In reality, Lt. Heinrich Wicker was a 24-year-old former member of SS-Totenkopf Standarte 1 (SSTK) who served with the SS-WVHA at KZ's Natzweiler-Struthof, Cochem, Mannheim-Sandhofen camps as well as Dachau. He also briefly attended the Bad Tölz officer's school in late 1944/early 1945. We’ve researched this guy’s bio, and have photos of him with General Linden’s party taken during the surrender.

    7) The photos you posted are of the coal yard shooting, which happened immediately PRIOR to the US 157th IR troops reaching the protective custody compound. Lt. Col Felix Sparks physically STOPPED the shooting by kicking Pvt. Curtain (the GI on the ground with the .30 cal) in the back and firing his pistol in the air. According to the 7th Army report - Investigation of Alleged Mistreatment of German Guards at Dachau compiled by US Seventh Army Assistant Inspector General Lt. Col. Joseph Whitaker,in May 1945,, 17 SS out of circa 60 were killed in this incident. The remaining 40 SS troopers were hustled out of the coal yard and the wounded taken to the infirmary. We KNOW the exact number of death from the 7th IG report and we KNOW SS prisoners survived the coal yard shooting – one SS survivor’s (Hans Lindberger ) account of the shooting was printed Erich Kern’s 1968 work "Meineid gegen Deutschland", also printed in a 1988 Belgian W-SS veteran’s article, cited in Marcuse’s book "Legacies of Dachau" and posted on the internet at the Dachau scrapbook site at Testimony of Hans Linberger, German soldier who survived the Dachau massacre

    8) It is important to note that the SS troops forced into the coal yard were from the infirmary area outside of the protective custody compound. We have no evidence to indicate that these troops were under Wicker’s command, as Wicker was waiting for US troops at the protective custody compound’s main gate, the jourhaus.

    9) We KNOW SS troops survived the liberation on April 29th. How do we know?
    -- Because the Dachau International Prisoner’s Committee meeting notes for April 30, 1945 mentioned that SS prisoners will be turned over to "American military authorities as prisoners of war" (see p.450, Concentration Camp Dachau published in 1978 by the Comité International de Dachau, ISBN 3-87490-528-4)

    - Because Herbert Marcuse on p. 57 of his book Legacies of Dachau writes about how between May 10th – 14th 1945, the 130 surviving SS troops were used on garbage collection duty, and footnotes the reference with FIVE source documents – the IPC meeting notes for May 9th, the May 11th issue of the inmates newspaper Der Antifaschist, Smith’s book "The Harrowing of Hell", a July 22 Voice of America broadcast and an article in the August 3rd, 1945 edition of the Washington Evening Star

    - Because Dr. Marcus J, Smith with the US Displaced Persons Team 115, wrote a book about his experiences rehabilitating the KZ inmates at Dachau called The Harrowing of Hell (University of New Mexico Press, 1972) He mentions SS troops as prisoners multiple times in his book (see p. 120, 132, 157, 158, 172) and specifically cites that they are being housed in the bunker at the southern end of the protective custody compound.

    10) We don’t have a clear understanding of how many SS troops were present at the Dachau KZ complex (both the KZ and the troop training ground) on April 29th. Gun guestimated 560 troops guarding the KZ; Red Cross Representative Victor Maurer estimated "a company" (See p 14. In Dachau: 29 April 1945 - estimated by Swiss Cross Representative Victor Maurer (with SS Lt. Wickert present) according the official report by Brig. Gen. Henning Linden, Assistant Commander, US 42nd Infantry Division). A company is 100-150 men. The April 30th SHEAF report mentions 300 SS men. Virtually all accounts of the liberation concur that most of the SS troops at Dachau had abandoned their posts the previous evening, many changing into civilian clothing and escaping into the countryside. We will probably never know how many SS men were at Dachau on April 29th, other than circa 100 were killed and circa 130 were captured.

    11) We also don’t have a clear understanding as to what units the SS troops at Dachau on 29th April were from. We do know that Wicker wasn’t a "frontline Waffen-SS" man but was a member of the WVHA and the KZ staff. We do know Lindberger was from the Dachau Troop Training Ground walking wounded replacement company. We do have evidence that at least one of the SS men killed on April 29th was a member of the KZ staff and not a Waffen-SS" trooper (see the KZ collartab and photo that I posted on the last 6-page Dachau thread) We do know that Gun claimed "Skodzensky" was from the LSSAH division, and that other accounts claim the SS troops killed that day were

    a) western European,
    b) Hungarian volksdeutsche
    c)5th SS division
    d) 11th SS division,
    e) 17th SS division

    but in over a year of searching I’ve never been able to find any conclusive proof that the SS troops at Dachau guarding the KZ were from a front line W-SS unit. We have claims that certain cuff titles, edelweiss patches, and cammo uniforms "prove" that they troops were W-SS, but as to attributing them to a specific unit, we have nothing to date.
     
  14. m kenny

    m kenny Banned

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    12) I mention all this to prove that Buechner’s book, so dear to Holocaust deniers and Revisionists like Ernst Zundel, contains multiples of errors and caveats over the alleged massacre of 560 SS troops. Here’s some specific examples from Hour of the Avenger:

    - p23 Buechner railed against the "error" that journalists Marguerite Higgins and Peter Furst, travelling with General Linden’s group from the 42nd Infantry Division, were first to enter the KZ. But Higgins and Furst were MOST DEFINITELY among the first US troops to liberate the KZ – we know this from her dispatch, the official reports from the 42nd, the photographs taken during the liberation (which show her standing next to Wicker) and books like Flint Whitlock’s history of the 45th ID, "The Rock of Anzio" Buechner’s attempted to "prove" that the 45th ID liberated the KZ first, but he got his facts wrong.

    - P20: Buechner mentioned the 157th SS regiment as "they never met their American counterparts in battle" – you bet they didn’t – no 157th SS Regiment ever existed.

    - Beuchner’s book claims "Chief" Jack Bushyhead killed 346 surrendered SS men – even provides a convenient diagram of the execution scene – which happens to be the coal yard – the site of the aforementioned execution of 17 SS men. So apparently we have another massacre occuring at the same spot of a previous massacre, but somehow the 7th Army IG, which began investigating the illegal killings on May 1st, found the original 17 SS corpses in the coal yard but missed the additional 346

    - Buechner goes on to describe the .30 cal on the ground, the BAR man etc. – he’s describing "Exhibit C" of the 7th Army’s war crimes report - the photo you posted, which shows the US servicemen tentatively identified in this photo are from left to right: Hammorski(?), Pvt. "Birdeye" Bryant (carrying .30-cal ammo), Cpt. Sedler (standing, glancing left) Pvt. Curtain, (kneeling), PFC John Lee (with BAR). Sparks was there – he stopped the shooting. Lt. Walsh was there, he got relieved of command. Lt. Bushyhead was there – he was later investigated by the 7th Army AG. Everyone else mentioned in the photo was investigated by the IG But Buechner definitely WASN"T THERE – he wasn’t among the first 157th IR troops to enter Dachau. He didn’t show up till 2 hours after the coal yard incident (see Rock of Anzio p 389 and footnote 122) which took place at circa 1400 hours.

    Buechner in Chapter IX of his book mentioned how he stopped at Spark’s command post prior to witnessing the massacre – but Sparks didn’t set up his command post till 1635 hours ("Rock of Anzio" p. 384)

    - Buechner’s book directly CONTRADICTS his testimony taken on 5th May 1945 by the IGD Lt. Col. Joseph Whitaker. Go back to that Boston Globe URL and find the 7th Army IG Report on the mistreatment of SS PWS. Here’s the transcript of his testimony:

    Quote:

    Date: 5 May 1945. By: Lt. Col. Joseph M. Whitaker, IGD,

    Asst. Inspector General, Seventh Army.

    The witness was sworn.

    363 Q Please state your name, rank, serial number and organization.

    A Howard E. Buchner, 1st Lieutenant, MC, 0-435481, 3rd Bn., 157th Infantry.

    (The witness was advised of his rights under the 24th Article of War.)

    364 Q Do you remember the taking of the Dachau Concentration Camp?

    A Yes, sir.

    365 Q Were you the surgeon of the 3rd Battalion, 157th Infantry, at that time?

    A Yes, sir.

    366 Q Did you see or visit a yard by the power plant where some German soldiers had been shot?

    A I did, sir.

    367 Q Can you fix the hour at which you saw this?

    A Not with certainty, but I would judge about 4:00 o'clock in the afternoon.

    368 Q Of what day?

    A I can't give the exact date.

    369 Q Describe to me what you saw when you visited this yard.

    A We learned that one of our companies had gone through the camp and that it was something to see out there. So, we got on one of the peeps to visit there and we were detained for some time by the commanding officer of the 1st Battalion, 157th Infantry, because he didn't know whether the place had been cleared. When we got there we saw a quadrangular enclosure, there was a cement wall about ten feet high and inside this enclosure I saw 15 or 16 dead and wounded German soldiers lying along the wall.

    370 Q Did you determine which were dead and which were wounded?

    A I did not examine any of them, sir, but I saw several of them moving very slightly.

    371 Q Did you make any examination to determine whether or not those who were not dead could be saved?

    A I did not.

    372 Q Was there any guard there?

    A There was a soldier standing at the entrance of this yard whom I assumed to be a guard.

    373 Q Do you know the soldier or what company he was from?

    A No, sir.

    374 Q Do you know whether or not any medical attention was called for these wounded German soldiers?

    A I do not.



    That’s why Buechner was investigated and recommended for courts martial – he saw the original 17 bodies, some apparently not quite dead, and refused to treat them.

    Even Buechners’s account of the "346 massacre" in Chapter IX of his book contains disclaimers. He claims that two .30 cal machine guns killed the 346 SS men, but then states

    Quote:
    Even though the use of two machine guns have been referred to by several others, I have never been able to confirm the presence of the machine gun on the roof


    Note that Lt. Bushyhead was the man supposedly manning this machine gun which may or may not have existed.

    Buechner goes on to describe how Lt. Robert Kimsey peeked over the coal yard wall (the wall between Kimsey and the SS troops getting massacred – a rather outrageous thing for a combat veteran to peek his head into the line of fire of 2 machine guns, but whatever) and they says on p. 88

    Quote:
    Although his memory of the length of the wall and the number of slain SS guards differ from mine…

    —Aw Jeez, Howie, is that so!?!

    - Buechner’s diagram of the wall is suspicious longer than the photos taken by T-4 Mussert indicate. If you want I can draw a diagram to illustrate.

    - Buechner’s slain SS tally is an attempt to match Nerin Gun’s number of 560. He takes an estimate of 12 SS guards killed at the coal yard (which he claims were killed by "Birdeye") adds 122 "shot on the spot" (a number taken from Michael Seltzer’s book "Deliverance Day" – a book which is heavily fictionalized and overestimates the number killed at the original coal yard shooting) and then invents the "346" massacre and rounds up with 80 more KIA, by inmates, etc. to get the magic number 560.Buechner makes a point to say that all the SS guards were killed, but this is clearly incorrect, as my points above illustrate. And we can see how the number of SS dead increased through the years through sloppy research.

    Tangential to the Dachau story, but perhaps an indication of the historical accuracy of Buechner’s research, is Buechner’s other book "SECRETS OF THE HOLY LANCE"
    Described as
    "One of the most incredible books on lost treasure, secret societies, ancient relics and WWII ever written. Taking up where The Spear of Destiny by Trevor Ravenscroft leaves off, this book relates that the Holy Lance was secretly taken to a base in Antarctica, while a replica was returned to the Vienna Museum. A book packed with strange information on Nazi bases in Antarctica, Himmler and
    the SS, U-boats carrying important Nazis to South America and Hitler's secret treasure."


    I am still uncertain as to why Buechner wrote his book – a book which so slanders his comrade Bushyhead "The Avenger" and his division, which frankly, despite the regrettable illegal killings, did a pretty wonderful thing for humanity by liberating Dachau. 100 SS guards were killed and 32,000 people were released from Nazi slavery. It’s too bad that some people want the former to overshadow the significance of the latter."
     
  15. P38 Pilot

    P38 Pilot Active Member

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    I think the SS got what was coming. I mean, they shot thousands of unarmed Jews, etc.
     
  16. Soundbreaker Welch?

    Soundbreaker Welch? Active Member

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    It was Vigilante Justice. Except that they were GI's with a military uniform on their back. That gives them some authority to execute the law and not make them just common civilians. It can put the blood on the hands of the US Army, except it wasn't a command from high command so it's really just a couple of soldiers who sentenced these guards by off-hand court martial to death without a judge.

    It's true a lot of them Vermins would have been executed after Nuremburg.
     
  17. syscom3

    syscom3 Pacific Historian

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    The camp guards got exactly what they deserved. It wasnt vigilante justice, it was retribution for the cruelty and inhuman conduct put upon the inmates.

    No man could have restrained themselves when they saw the horrors of the camps.
     
  18. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
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    I believe that to be true. Act evil and you should be treated as evil. Removed for the rest of society. There is not opportunity for redemption of evil.
     
  19. Soundbreaker Welch?

    Soundbreaker Welch? Active Member

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    There is not opportunity for redemption of evil.


    True. And if we in WWII had had some really horrible concentration camps for some race of people in the US just like the SS did, I guess I could understand why some ordinary Wehrmacht soldiers would do a similar thing without realizing perhaps what their own Third Reich was doing.

    As everybody her knows now (most likely since the 60's) we had some holding camps for the Japanese. They weren't cruel or inhumane, just not in line with our Democracy. More or less like an Indian Reservation from the end of the 19th Century.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to smear the US. I know our GI's were never guilty of a hellish thing like the Waffen SS were. It's just a thought of how I react would if the Germans in WWII really had the higher moral ground to us, which they didn't have, and did a similar thing in punishment.

    On ocasion some of the SS servicemen did masscre U.S. Prisoners of War, many of them Airmen, which I consider wrong and unjust, even if they were furious at them for bombing their homeland.

    It's not like the British ever killed German Airmen after they were bombing the British Homeland and were shot down.

    Perhaps both sides violated the Gevena Convention somewhat by bombing in areas considered to be more civillian than military. Firebombing, Atomic Bombing being some of the most extreme. But even if some consider both sides committed crimes in this moral area it would be the leaders that would be most guilty for it, and likely the only ones to be judged and put on trial. The flying airmen themselves, Axis and Allies, were still not war criminals, and as Prisoners of War should have been treated decently and sent to a prison camp, not shot on the spot by the SS.

    We Americans treated the German Prisoners fairly, as did the British.

    I suppose bringing in WWII bombing doesn't fit in, but still the death and destruction from the Air was as immense as any actions on the ground. The Russians population suffered some of the worst casualties in WWII such as at Stalingrad, but of course it was not just caused by bombing.

    At any rate I feel more sorry for London being bombed than Dresden. The Londoners didn't provoke the Germans, and many Allied Airmen felt destroying Germany from the air was just and have no regrets, since it had become an evil nation. The only time they felt sorry, as many of them say, was when their bombs missed the target! No quarter in the bombing until surrender from the Nazi's.

    Yes, the German Concentration Camps were the worst and most fiendish Hell of WWII and their crimes separtes them from us in a drastic way and gave the soldiers the moral high ground to liberate the Dachua Camp in the the manner they did. The prisoner inmates look like skeletons. I can imagine the revulsion I would feel for the men who made them that way. Those Waffen SS must be Grim Reapers with no thought in their minds but death, but Reapers that themselves can be Reaped. And so the men of the U.S. 45th Division reaped their guts.

    The men who worked them deserved more Hellish punishment for their crimes than even prerhaps more ordinary War Criminals and thus sympathy is lost on them. I don't have much, considering what the SS did was much worse to the Jews, Poles, Russians, ect.

    Yet I if they were ordinary German Soldiers, as others on here have said, I would feel more doubt as to whether they deserved such a fate under modern warfare standards.
     
  20. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
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    Moder warfare standards...

    Dragged dead through the streets of Somalia.

    Head cut off on video for political purposes.

    Car bombing of innocent civilians including women and children.

    Shooting of wheelchair Navy Seamen in the back of the head and then dumping the body out the airplane doorway.

    Indescriminately blowing up commuter trains during rush hour.

    Plastic explosives in large category transport airplanes.

    Shoe bombs.

    Beheadings of policemen.

    Markets car bombed.

    It's a different world. But yet very similar in the evil acts performed.
     
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