I'll throw in a "Coulda been a Contenda" : Focke-Wulf Ta 400 Focke-Wulf Ta 400 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
scale model ready for windtunnel testing
scale model ready for windtunnel testing
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Game changers!
- Thread starter Kryten
- Start date
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My every instinct sees a suddenly manifesting German strategic airforce in the late war to be an industrial fantasy, but you gotta love the designs.
Most realistic basis of a budding strategic fleet would've been Ju-390 production in 43, but you're already running five years behind the US with 1/100th its industry and they aren't being bombed. The Amerika bomber project was just another one of those things that convinced OKH/OKL that Hitler was indeed simply insane. But a strategic air force might've been nice in Apr42 when it could've assaulted Soviet Ural industry and oil supply. As a maritime aircraft it could've helped the Kriegsmarine blockade the British isles too.
One of the reasons the US leapt into the European war more than the Pacific, using Pearl Harbour as justification was because some urgency existed not so much that Britain was under any serious threat, but if it could be sieged and starved into submission in the Battle of the Atlantic, any invasion of Europe would have to come through the Med. Look how bad Italy turned out as it was. Losing Britain would be disastrous. And the Soviet Union was physically vast with mountain ranges and every type of climate and terrain from desert to arctic.
Just both those two points alone should've had Hitler tearing his hair out back in 1938 screaming for a strategic air force. Yet oddly it was these two only real obstacles to total domination that Hitler in fact utterly dismissed as any kind of serious problem or challenge.
Most realistic basis of a budding strategic fleet would've been Ju-390 production in 43, but you're already running five years behind the US with 1/100th its industry and they aren't being bombed. The Amerika bomber project was just another one of those things that convinced OKH/OKL that Hitler was indeed simply insane. But a strategic air force might've been nice in Apr42 when it could've assaulted Soviet Ural industry and oil supply. As a maritime aircraft it could've helped the Kriegsmarine blockade the British isles too.
One of the reasons the US leapt into the European war more than the Pacific, using Pearl Harbour as justification was because some urgency existed not so much that Britain was under any serious threat, but if it could be sieged and starved into submission in the Battle of the Atlantic, any invasion of Europe would have to come through the Med. Look how bad Italy turned out as it was. Losing Britain would be disastrous. And the Soviet Union was physically vast with mountain ranges and every type of climate and terrain from desert to arctic.
Just both those two points alone should've had Hitler tearing his hair out back in 1938 screaming for a strategic air force. Yet oddly it was these two only real obstacles to total domination that Hitler in fact utterly dismissed as any kind of serious problem or challenge.
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It's difficult to see that an "Amerika Bomber" able to penetrate up to 1000km into the entire east coast could be a 'game changer' that could seriously threaten the USA's industry or moral. It could however force a significant defence expenditure on home protection. It would come at a very heavy price for the Luftwaffe crews that flew these aircraft into combat. It would also tend to irritate and anger Americans though I doubt psychologically things would change in the 8th airforce's treatment of Germany.
To penetrate during the day a large 'critical mass' of say 200 aircraft would be needed, an almost impossible resource. Even then they would suffer serverly at the hands of swarms of P-47D and P-38L. This aircraft is only suitable for night missions.
The main benefit of such a 'bomber' would be its potential as a maritime patrol and reconnaissance bomber able to properly support u-boat operations while able to survive escort carriers aircraft and various aircraft such as Beaufighters and Mosquitos. The would attack and harass Allied ASW aircraft.
Fly missions to Japan for exchange of technology and special materials.
The only aircraft the Luftwaffe had were derivatives of transports; the FW 200 and Ju 290 and not really up to the task.
The Ju 290 was a direct derivative of the Ju 90 (the first Ju 290 was built out of the Ju 90 prototype) transport which itself was a spin off of the Ju 89 bomber of 1937. the Ju 290 was on the verge of being able to do a one way mission while the Ju 390 could get part way back.
Had the Luftwaffe properly developed the Ju 89 through to a Ju 289, thereby not burdening the aircraft with the bulky transport fuselage it might have had its aircraft.
The He 277, which was flying in Jan 1944 in its developed form as the He 277B5 was expected to have a range of 6900 miles with 3 tons of bombs, just enough to reach the coast of America.
Me 264 ran into runway issues. It could do the mission but a 10000ft concrete runway was in dreamland in those days and a big target. More powerful engines however did become available but by then it was too late.
The Ta 400 didn't have the runaway issue but had a fuel efficiency issue. It too became plausible as new powerful engines such as the Jumo 213 and DB603L became available that could get the huge fuel loads of the ground.
In the end the Luftwaffe realised piston bombers were not survivable, switched to high flying jets that were to be in flight refuelled.
A series of experiments over the years culminated with succesfull hookups between Ju 290's and Ju 390 in 1943 proved the concept could work.
To penetrate during the day a large 'critical mass' of say 200 aircraft would be needed, an almost impossible resource. Even then they would suffer serverly at the hands of swarms of P-47D and P-38L. This aircraft is only suitable for night missions.
The main benefit of such a 'bomber' would be its potential as a maritime patrol and reconnaissance bomber able to properly support u-boat operations while able to survive escort carriers aircraft and various aircraft such as Beaufighters and Mosquitos. The would attack and harass Allied ASW aircraft.
Fly missions to Japan for exchange of technology and special materials.
The only aircraft the Luftwaffe had were derivatives of transports; the FW 200 and Ju 290 and not really up to the task.
The Ju 290 was a direct derivative of the Ju 90 (the first Ju 290 was built out of the Ju 90 prototype) transport which itself was a spin off of the Ju 89 bomber of 1937. the Ju 290 was on the verge of being able to do a one way mission while the Ju 390 could get part way back.
Had the Luftwaffe properly developed the Ju 89 through to a Ju 289, thereby not burdening the aircraft with the bulky transport fuselage it might have had its aircraft.
The He 277, which was flying in Jan 1944 in its developed form as the He 277B5 was expected to have a range of 6900 miles with 3 tons of bombs, just enough to reach the coast of America.
Me 264 ran into runway issues. It could do the mission but a 10000ft concrete runway was in dreamland in those days and a big target. More powerful engines however did become available but by then it was too late.
The Ta 400 didn't have the runaway issue but had a fuel efficiency issue. It too became plausible as new powerful engines such as the Jumo 213 and DB603L became available that could get the huge fuel loads of the ground.
In the end the Luftwaffe realised piston bombers were not survivable, switched to high flying jets that were to be in flight refuelled.
A series of experiments over the years culminated with succesfull hookups between Ju 290's and Ju 390 in 1943 proved the concept could work.
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Another "Game changer" was the radio proximity fuse.
The USA fielded them at the end of 1942 on USN ships.
The British carried out tests that were terminated in 1942 since by that time the US fuse was a production state. They detonated shells by remote control. The shells were tracked by embedded corner reflector by microwave radar and detonated by an extra long radar pulse when the target and shell signals merged.
Of course while this was a game changer for the allies and helped defeat the kamikaze onslaught and the V1 attacks it would have been more of a game changer for the Germans since it was a defensive weapon.
The Germans never deployed but successfully tested proximity fuse shells fired from guns at the beginning of the war 1939; perhaps even beforehand. They shut down their program after some success because the fuses didn't have enough range (2m or so it seems). (Its not true that they couldn't shock harden them, they were already in use in bomb fuses). They reactivated their program towards the end of the war and got to about 10m - 15m range. There are tantalising accounts of them being used as part of Artillery (detonating 1m from the ground) and of an officer being sent to retrieve a shell fuse for use on the V2 warhead.)
Had they have introduced a proximity fuse in 1943 the following would have happened:
1 FLAK kills would go up by a factor of 3-4 or more forcing operation at much higher altitudes.
2 The B-24 Liberators low service ceiling vs the B-17 would make it's use unviable.
The Germans shell fuses were were (mainly) electrostatic fuses that used a vacuum tube known as a cold cathode thyratron or triode. It's not strictly a vacuum tube as it is filled with low pressure argon gas. (they apparently had radar type thermionic tubes in development as well)
Basically a small antenna a little less than the radius of the shell (eg 44mm being half of 88mm) is trailed from the tip of the nose of the shell. As the shell is rotating at several hundred RPM and the antenna passes through the static field created by the aircraft and its disturbance of the shells own field the antenna senses an alternating current. This is filtered (about 1kHz as per rotation of the shell depending on rifling) and applied to the control anode (or "grid") of the tube which then 'fires' and discharges electricity from a capacitor that had been pre-charged into a link which blows and detonates the shell.
Since the cold cathode tube does not consume electricity till it is triggered there is no need for a shock hardened battery; a capacitor pre-charged before firing or even in the barrel is enough.
It must have been an exceedingly cheap fuse, it also had a nose contact switch as a backup fuse.
Using the same technology they were also working on electrically programmable time fuses for FLAK. In this a capacitor in the shell is charged to the desired level, ideally while still in the barrel. When the shell is fired the acceleration closes a switch which discharges the capacitor into a second capacitor via a resistor. When the second capacitor reaches a certain level the cold cathode thyratron fires. The work was centred not on making the fuse work (it worked ) but on getting the high accuracy required consistantly.
There is a little info here:
http://www.cdvandt.org/CIOS-XXXI-50.pdf
This is from the tube designers not the fuze manufacturer and so is quite vague, there were several other tube companies involved as well.
There is a little here in section 13 of a broader program.
http://www.cdvandt.org/CIOS-XXXII-87.pdf
There is supposedly a more complete report here but I've never been able to find it:
CIOS report ITEM no 3 file no XXVI -1 1945 which looks at Rheinmetall-Borsig who
were actually designing, test firing and building the fuses.
The USA fielded them at the end of 1942 on USN ships.
The British carried out tests that were terminated in 1942 since by that time the US fuse was a production state. They detonated shells by remote control. The shells were tracked by embedded corner reflector by microwave radar and detonated by an extra long radar pulse when the target and shell signals merged.
Of course while this was a game changer for the allies and helped defeat the kamikaze onslaught and the V1 attacks it would have been more of a game changer for the Germans since it was a defensive weapon.
The Germans never deployed but successfully tested proximity fuse shells fired from guns at the beginning of the war 1939; perhaps even beforehand. They shut down their program after some success because the fuses didn't have enough range (2m or so it seems). (Its not true that they couldn't shock harden them, they were already in use in bomb fuses). They reactivated their program towards the end of the war and got to about 10m - 15m range. There are tantalising accounts of them being used as part of Artillery (detonating 1m from the ground) and of an officer being sent to retrieve a shell fuse for use on the V2 warhead.)
Had they have introduced a proximity fuse in 1943 the following would have happened:
1 FLAK kills would go up by a factor of 3-4 or more forcing operation at much higher altitudes.
2 The B-24 Liberators low service ceiling vs the B-17 would make it's use unviable.
The Germans shell fuses were were (mainly) electrostatic fuses that used a vacuum tube known as a cold cathode thyratron or triode. It's not strictly a vacuum tube as it is filled with low pressure argon gas. (they apparently had radar type thermionic tubes in development as well)
Basically a small antenna a little less than the radius of the shell (eg 44mm being half of 88mm) is trailed from the tip of the nose of the shell. As the shell is rotating at several hundred RPM and the antenna passes through the static field created by the aircraft and its disturbance of the shells own field the antenna senses an alternating current. This is filtered (about 1kHz as per rotation of the shell depending on rifling) and applied to the control anode (or "grid") of the tube which then 'fires' and discharges electricity from a capacitor that had been pre-charged into a link which blows and detonates the shell.
Since the cold cathode tube does not consume electricity till it is triggered there is no need for a shock hardened battery; a capacitor pre-charged before firing or even in the barrel is enough.
It must have been an exceedingly cheap fuse, it also had a nose contact switch as a backup fuse.
Using the same technology they were also working on electrically programmable time fuses for FLAK. In this a capacitor in the shell is charged to the desired level, ideally while still in the barrel. When the shell is fired the acceleration closes a switch which discharges the capacitor into a second capacitor via a resistor. When the second capacitor reaches a certain level the cold cathode thyratron fires. The work was centred not on making the fuse work (it worked ) but on getting the high accuracy required consistantly.
There is a little info here:
http://www.cdvandt.org/CIOS-XXXI-50.pdf
This is from the tube designers not the fuze manufacturer and so is quite vague, there were several other tube companies involved as well.
There is a little here in section 13 of a broader program.
http://www.cdvandt.org/CIOS-XXXII-87.pdf
There is supposedly a more complete report here but I've never been able to find it:
CIOS report ITEM no 3 file no XXVI -1 1945 which looks at Rheinmetall-Borsig who
were actually designing, test firing and building the fuses.
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NZTyphoon
Airman 1st Class
What about the good old DC-3/C-47/Goonybird? As an airliner the DC-1, 2, 3 series changed the game for commercial aircraft; without it the Allies would have struggled to supply their troops in the field, would have had difficulty dropping paratroops, towing gliders etc etc - was there any other aircraft type which could have done the same job for the Allies, and was involved in every theatre of war during WW2?
As they say amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.
I did an analysis once of how much fuel was needed to deliver 1 ton of cargo 1000km for a Ju 52/3m and a DC3. The DC3 used signifcantly less fuel and of course had a longer range. It wasn't an easy comparison as fuel capacity and engine power signicantly improved the Ju 52 and closed the gap somewhat.
The idea was to see if the DC3 could've supplied the 300-500 tons daily the German Army in Stalingrad needed. The Ju 52 probably had slightly better STOL and rough field performance but the logisical problems of supply goods from 1200 miles (distance Berlin to Stalingrad) as well as the fuel needed was complicated by the Ju 52 need to refuel at least once even twice on the way to the destination and its greater needed for fuel which coomplicates the amount of fuel needed at the staging airport.
The replacement for the Ju 52 was supposed to be the Ju 252, it had extremely good performance and could have flown from Berlin to Stalingrad with 2.5 tons of cargo and returned without refueling, but only a few dozen were ever made.
The DC3 made a difference because it was a perfect combination of quality and quantity.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
Actually, the justification of US going to war in Europe was Germany declaring war on the US.
The C-46, although there was not as many available at the start of the war. The C-46 was more capable.NZTyphoon said:
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"... Design work was begun in 1943, much of it being carried out by French technicians working for Focke Wulf at Châtillon-sous-Bagneux near Paris, with contracts for design and construction of major components being awarded to German, French, and Italian companies in an attempt to speed the process and begin construction of prototypes as soon as possible." [Wikipedia above]
Most interesting ... fore shadowing the future.
MM
Most interesting ... fore shadowing the future.
MM
Like the Americans bombing Tokyo after Pearl Harbor, if the Germans could bomb New York, Washington, Boston, etc., with the TA 400 it instill the same fear, no? if then perhaps London, Moscow.. all on the same day. It wouldn't win the war for the Germans, but perhaps a conditional surrender? Germany was already lost. Save whats left. My opinion anyways.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"... It wouldn't win the war for the Germans, but perhaps a conditional surrender? "
In truth - the only target is Allied Leadership. Japan could have taken many more "hits" but, to his credit, The Emperor and like-minded Japanese spoke to the reality Japan was facing - and ordered "unconditional surrender". Leadership - if a nuclear device took out Stalin, for example, the Soviets might stumble ...over succession and Leadership. Perhaps .... Whereas ... if Churchill or Roosevelt were taken out - behind those men is broad leadership in depth.
MM
In truth - the only target is Allied Leadership. Japan could have taken many more "hits" but, to his credit, The Emperor and like-minded Japanese spoke to the reality Japan was facing - and ordered "unconditional surrender". Leadership - if a nuclear device took out Stalin, for example, the Soviets might stumble ...over succession and Leadership. Perhaps ...
. Whereas ... if Churchill or Roosevelt were taken out - behind those men is broad leadership in depth.MM
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
I think if you look at the American bomber offensive in 1943, before long range escort capability, it was reeling and close to termination. The Fw-400 would be met by a far more formidable defense with no support. And that if the thing actually worked. And, the resorces required would come from a far more stressed defense industry than the one attacked.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
The justification for the US going to war with Germany was indeed Germany declaring war on the US. I have heard that one of the primary reasons Hitler declared war on the US was his hope that Japan would honor its obligation by declaring war on Russia and easing the fight on the eastern front. Japan, having already been slapped by Russia once was not eager to do this.
If we are going into specifics, yes, I agree, but centimetric radar was the theme of my thread; my point was, aircraft equipped with it contributed hugely to the victory over the Germans, not just over the Atlantic.
Now, you're just being a smartie pants.
Sorry, talk of LD6 triodes means gibberish to me; I'm a simple spanner turner. Nevertheless, the German program did nothing to prevent their U-boats' defeat.Another thing of interest that could have produced dividends for the Germans was Walther's closed cycle motor powered U-boats. U792 and U794 were both launched in 1943, but this isn't a discussion of the Battle of the Atlantic; maybe you could open one?
@ nuumannn
The magnetron and microwave radar were indeed game changers. However that the Germans "didn't" have them (Untill very late in the war) was more decisive to the war than the fact that the allies "did" have them. It was the Germans that needed microwave radar due to its abillity to avoid jamming more easily. The allies on the other hand could more easily have lived without it. I rather suspect that H2S was of little value as it seems to have had shockingly poor accuracy. Previus ASV 2 radar (metric) sent a beam out along each wing; the opperator would see a blip on an A-scope on either the left or right as the aircraft swept past. The aircraft could then turn towards the contact and use a second antena one the nose (which was also in use all the time). Of course the classic "PPI" display is easier to use but ASV2 worked.
The Germans did have a microwave program, but they were in no hurry to make use of it as their existing radars worked quite well and they were short of resources. In 1942 they suspended a great deal of work in favour of advancing existing radars despite having some magnetrons that would have worked, not as good as the Allied stuff but good enough. They paid a high price for this.
Interestingly the Japanese invented a magnetron Before the British and introduced 10cm radar as early as 1942. However they just relatively slowly on the engineering front and with only 400 radars in used missed an opportunity.
The magnetron and microwave radar were indeed game changers. However that the Germans "didn't" have them (Untill very late in the war) was more decisive to the war than the fact that the allies "did" have them. It was the Germans that needed microwave radar due to its abillity to avoid jamming more easily. The allies on the other hand could more easily have lived without it. I rather suspect that H2S was of little value as it seems to have had shockingly poor accuracy. Previus ASV 2 radar (metric) sent a beam out along each wing; the opperator would see a blip on an A-scope on either the left or right as the aircraft swept past. The aircraft could then turn towards the contact and use a second antena one the nose (which was also in use all the time). Of course the classic "PPI" display is easier to use but ASV2 worked.
The Germans did have a microwave program, but they were in no hurry to make use of it as their existing radars worked quite well and they were short of resources. In 1942 they suspended a great deal of work in favour of advancing existing radars despite having some magnetrons that would have worked, not as good as the Allied stuff but good enough. They paid a high price for this.
Interestingly the Japanese invented a magnetron Before the British and introduced 10cm radar as early as 1942. However they just relatively slowly on the engineering front and with only 400 radars in used missed an opportunity.
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This was exactly what I read by a historian who published the Nomohan incident. Interesting stuff, but my impressions of the Japanese point of view it apparently wasn't burned fingers, it was just sheer lack of incentive. Part of the general staff wanted to cut the south pacific from Japanese war plans anyway, but once they moved in that direction there was no possible way they could start a third major battlefront against the Siberian/Kazak troupé. These were well equipped with tanks and modern artillery, they found that out at Kalkin Gol.
So the Japanese thought ahead, saw no incentive and moved in a direction which precluded the suggestion.
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
Dave, can you explain as I have not heard of this. I thought Japan won in 1905 unless there was another conflict I'm not aware of.
Battles of Khalkhin Gol, 11 May – 16 September 1939
Battles of Khalkhin Gol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It actually started off by the Nomohan incident though. China was in civil war...sort of, it had broken into warring states because the Kuomintang went utterly corrupt and leapt onto individual wealth opportunities, the whole place was a shambles. The Yellow River Valley traditionalists, the real old world Chinese from the prehistoric age, those guys got together and decided to form a local nationalist party. They went in with the Russians for materiél support, so they became the Communists, at this stage (and until after the war) they elected to play the part of a Soviet satellite. They always intended to function as the local nationalist party replacing the fallen kuomintang basically. After the war they simply declared themselves "Chinese Communists and not Soviet" which is when Russia stopped giving them lend lease surplus MiGs and started charging up front.
Anyway Japan had planned on reinstating the Q'ing Dynasty as a puppet so they were a bit miffed the Soviets went in with the Chinese. If it wasn't for them, they would've walked through the European Treaty Ports and never looked back, but the press towards the Yellow River Valley is ultimately what committed the Japanese Army resources it did for the entire war period, it was a drain on the South Pacific and Pacific Rim operation they couldn't afford, it prevented sustained reinforcement that was telling when the Americans came back to the Philippines, if not as early as the Solomons campaign.
So the Japanese contingent in Manchukuo decided to have a little border skirmish with the Russians on the Mongolian border. They fought very well. Right up until the Russians brought up their artillery and tank brigades. Then it was all over, it was embarressing really.
Anyway Japan had planned on reinstating the Q'ing Dynasty as a puppet so they were a bit miffed the Soviets went in with the Chinese. If it wasn't for them, they would've walked through the European Treaty Ports and never looked back, but the press towards the Yellow River Valley is ultimately what committed the Japanese Army resources it did for the entire war period, it was a drain on the South Pacific and Pacific Rim operation they couldn't afford, it prevented sustained reinforcement that was telling when the Americans came back to the Philippines, if not as early as the Solomons campaign.
So the Japanese contingent in Manchukuo decided to have a little border skirmish with the Russians on the Mongolian border. They fought very well. Right up until the Russians brought up their artillery and tank brigades. Then it was all over, it was embarressing really.
