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Steve I said in my original post that it wasnt so much the aircrafts capabilities but what it achieved, wiping out a major part of the Italian fleet and crippling a major battleship at sea. Basically it showed that the theory of air power at sea was a reality. For the Germans the Tirpitz was probably better in a fjord, the British spent enormous resources trying to destroy it and keeping a battle fleet at readiness should it put to sea.
Quite the reverse, it just showed that battleships were more of a liability than an asset in many theatres. I dont read so much naval history, after the sinking of the Bismark did battleships play a significant part in any theatre of operations? If anything I would think construction of carriers would have been stepped up/maximised.It certainly would NOT have caused massive cancellations of carrier construction and substitution of battleships.
Not from fear of Swordfish!
If Swordfish were a game changer then so were the X-Craft which did more damage to Tirpitz than did Swordfish to Bismarck.
I think a more stringent definition of game changer might be needed
Cheers
Steve
I think there is hardly an aircraft that can claim a greater single impact on the nature of warfare until the B-29 or perhaps the P-51.
Hmmm, Not convinced by this; I don't think it was the threat of the Swordfish that caused such an upset, this is a tactical use of available resources. The Swordfish was a torpedo bomber and its equal in the RAF between the wars was the Blackburn Shark, the two compare closely in terms of size, weight and performance, with the edge going to the Shark, not the Swordfish, yet the latter remained in service for much longer - although it did enter service a year after the Shark. No one would qualify the Blackburn Shark as a game changer, yet, if it were Sharks aboard RN carriers in WW2, the same accolades accorded the Swordfish would have gone to the Shark"
The difference is in the ability of the swordfish to operate from carriers, including escort carriers, in weather conditions that would ground most other aircraft. The shark may well have been able to be adapted to that, im really unsure of its flying qualities. I do know that NO other aircraft of WWII was able to come close to the reliability of the swordfish and its rough weather and STOL qualities as well as its fantastic adaptability. Quoting, or looking at the outright performance will lead you into error with the swordfish. it was a poor performer by any standard, except that it could do what it could do under the most unfavourable conditions.
"We also know that there were senior British (and overseas) naval personnel who were decrying the obsolescence of battleships even during the Great War; Murray Sueter comes to mind, so the impact of aircraft carrier based aviation had already shown to have generated support, and in support of proposed raids against the High Seas Fleet in Wilhelmshafen, the conversion of existing hulls into aircraft carrying ships had already been proposed before the war's end - Courageous and Glorious. By the end of the war, every British capital warship had facilities for carrying aircraft, although not all were allocated its own and this was introduced in 1917, so the concept of aviation at sea and its implications were not unknown and were readily foreseen"
Nearly all the major naval powers, except Germany had their believers in Carrier aviation, but with 1 or two major exceptions, these men were not in a position to change policy. Most navies remained firmly wedded to the supremacy of the BB until after the trifecta of Taranto, Bismarck and PH. The swordfish gave the carrier club a weapon at last able to break the battleship sword off at the hilt. Before that, whilst experiemts and trials pointed to the obsolescence of the BB, not many people were moved to accept that.
"As far as changing the nature of warfare, the Swordfish did not. It took part in gallant actions, which were in effect the day to day tasks that aircraft of the RN were expected to do - the concept of what we know as a Taranto style raid was first proposed in the Great War and serious planning was undertaken to its end before the war ended and, as Steve pointed out in an earlier post, taking out enemy ships in their own harbours was RN policy; it was, at the time known as a 'Copenhagen', after Adm Nelson's manoeuvring in 1801."
I can tell you that Taranto is considered in Carrier men's consciousness as a watershed events. after Taranto, the rules of warfare had to be re-written. Some continued to think the attack a fluke of nature, an abherration in the conduct of naval warfare. A result of the so called lacklustre italians. almost on cue the attacks in Taranto were followed by the airstrikes on the Bismarck, when all else had failed the obsolete swordfish again stepped up and proved the fallacy that battleships had nothing really to fear from carrier aircraft, and that this time it happened whilst the ship was at sea, against a ship with the most modern systems and the most aggressive and effective naval commanders then in existence on the planet. Other men had planned and dreamt of this outcome since preparations for the furious attack in 1917 but none of them, without exception had amounted to anything until proven operationally by the swordfish. The swordfish can lay claim to changing the nature of warfare at sea because it was they that put the runs on the board and proved in an operational sense what until then had only existed as untested theory.
"So, no, can't agree Parcifal; the Swordfish did not bring about a fundamental sea change (pardon the pun) in warfare at all. It was just doing its job; something that the navy did and had been doing for years".
Which navy was doing this for years before the Swordfish? There were theories, experiments, some promising experiemtns, but no hard results to base that on before the swordfish. Even the swordfish itself until the latter part of 1940, incorrectly used, could not lay claim to changing the way warfare was conducted. after the battles led by the swordfish were fought, naval power was measured in a fundamentally different way and naval warfare fought in a fundamentally different dynamic to all that came before it. after this brief era of success more modern and well equipped navies took the concept even further. Principally the Japanese, and then finally the Americans who devastated an empire using carriers and to this day project themselves as a world power mostly by their force projection capabilities through their huge carriers.
it was a game changer because it was the first aircraft of its kind to successfully in and operational sense fight battles in a totally new way and prove, conclusively that battleships could no longer exist without air cover, and in fact were no longer the final arbiters of seapower.
You might even say that airpower changed naval warfare for ever, but not specifically the Swordfish.
It was mine too when I posted it, the swordfish showed that any aircraft that can carry a torpedo or a depth charge and radar was a danger to ships and submarines. I wish I hadnt said ainything .I would say that, it was exactly my point.
Cheers
Steve
.... any aircraft that can carry a torpedo or a depth charge and radar was a danger to ships and submarines. .
Following on from this debate, if the Swordfish was a game changer, then I'd put up the Sopwith Cuckoo; the first specifically designed aircraft carrier based torpedo dropper. It was designed specifically for a ship launched raid against the High Seas Fleet in its own harbour and although it was never used in anger, exercises after the war and the actions of the Swordfish proved that what the Cuckoo pilots trained for could actually be done. But since I don't think the Swordfish is a game changer, perhaps the Cuckoo wasn't either.
I still maintain that it was the locomotive torpedo that changed naval warfare for ever. You might even say that airpower changed naval warfare for ever, but not specifically the Swordfish.
Or bombs, or rockets. Torpedoes were a fantastically expensive and high maintenance method of attacking ships from the air (or anywhere else). They were also by no means the most effective or reliable in the 1940s.
Cheers
Steve
I cannot deduce what aircraft were used in the Dardanelles, but given that the first flight with a torpedo slung from an aircraft was achieved on 28th July 1914 by an aircraft (unnamed in source) designed and built by Short Bros. that would be my best guess.
Cheers
Steve