GB-44 1/48 Mirage IIIC - Military A/C of post-war time
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- #102
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
That's it, enough is enough !
This stuff may be fine on bare plastic, or over the dedicated black base, but it does NOT like an enamel base coat.
I sprayed the underside, reducing the pressure to around 10 psi indicated (which drops when spraying ), and did one coat, in a light pass.
The paint went on very flat and dull, with a graininess quickly becoming evident, and some areas bubbling immediately.
The smell is very strong (and nothing like the almond smell mentioned in the Florry video ), and I can only think that the thinners in the paint is quite aggressive, attacking the enamel base coat. (my throat feels raw after just a few minutes exposure ).
As a test, the starboard aft section around the exhaust was lightly rubbed down, to reduce some of the bubbling, and Revell No.80 Silver brush painted onto a small area. No bubbling reaction, and a fairly smooth, shiny finish, considering it was roughly brushed.
Consequently, the model will be left for around 24 hours or more, before rubbing down to hopefully achieve some semblance of a smooth surface.
I'll put this aside for now, and concentrate on the F-5E build, before returning and using tried and tested methods - given the surface isn't permanently ruined.
As for the AK Xtreme Metal paints, they will be used again at some point in the future, but on bare plastic only, or possibly with the AK black base coat.
The pics below show the horrible results so far, with the bubbled areas, and the overall rough finish, almost certainly caused by reaction with the base coat.
This stuff may be fine on bare plastic, or over the dedicated black base, but it does NOT like an enamel base coat.
I sprayed the underside, reducing the pressure to around 10 psi indicated (which drops when spraying ), and did one coat, in a light pass.
The paint went on very flat and dull, with a graininess quickly becoming evident, and some areas bubbling immediately.
The smell is very strong (and nothing like the almond smell mentioned in the Florry video ), and I can only think that the thinners in the paint is quite aggressive, attacking the enamel base coat. (my throat feels raw after just a few minutes exposure ).
As a test, the starboard aft section around the exhaust was lightly rubbed down, to reduce some of the bubbling, and Revell No.80 Silver brush painted onto a small area. No bubbling reaction, and a fairly smooth, shiny finish, considering it was roughly brushed.
Consequently, the model will be left for around 24 hours or more, before rubbing down to hopefully achieve some semblance of a smooth surface.
I'll put this aside for now, and concentrate on the F-5E build, before returning and using tried and tested methods - given the surface isn't permanently ruined.
As for the AK Xtreme Metal paints, they will be used again at some point in the future, but on bare plastic only, or possibly with the AK black base coat.
The pics below show the horrible results so far, with the bubbled areas, and the overall rough finish, almost certainly caused by reaction with the base coat.
- Thread starter
- #104
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Yep. This stuff is described as enamel, but I think it's really a lacquer, with the thinners, and the smell, stronger than cellulose.
As mentioned earlier, when sprayed directly on to bare plastic, there's no problem, with a smooth, shiny finish being obtained.
I'm just hoping that I can get a reasonable surface for spraying, and that the enamel paint I use won't react with the AK paints - still got to do a bit more testing, once the AK paint has had time to really harden.
As mentioned earlier, when sprayed directly on to bare plastic, there's no problem, with a smooth, shiny finish being obtained.
I'm just hoping that I can get a reasonable surface for spraying, and that the enamel paint I use won't react with the AK paints - still got to do a bit more testing, once the AK paint has had time to really harden.
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- #106
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Yes my friend, I used Humbrol No. 27 Sea Grey / Ocean Grey as the primer.
I've now done a small test, brush-painting Revell No 90 silver enamel over the AK paint, and it's OK. Next step is to spray a small area, and see if the thinners, affects the AK paint.
If all is well, and if I can get a smooth enough surface to spray on, then the finish should be good, and can be enhanced using my normal method of burnishing with aluminium powder. I settled on Revell No.90 some time ago, after trying various metal finishes, and it;s been the best so far, although not all Revell enamels are as good, but they're way better than the current Humbrol.
I've now done a small test, brush-painting Revell No 90 silver enamel over the AK paint, and it's OK. Next step is to spray a small area, and see if the thinners, affects the AK paint.
If all is well, and if I can get a smooth enough surface to spray on, then the finish should be good, and can be enhanced using my normal method of burnishing with aluminium powder. I settled on Revell No.90 some time ago, after trying various metal finishes, and it;s been the best so far, although not all Revell enamels are as good, but they're way better than the current Humbrol.
Crimea_River
Marshal
Seems very likely now that the two paints are fighting each other. A shame. Hopefully there won't be too much scrubbing to get a good base from which to try again.
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- #109
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
I think I'm getting somewhere, and might be able to save this model, but the finish will be far from perfect.
The model was rubbed down overall, improving the surface finish, but not completely eliminating the 'textured', or grainy - looking surface caused by the reaction of the two paints.
Next step was to test the Xtreme Metal for resistance to normal, thinned enamel, and neat thinners ( white spirit ).
A small area of the underside of the wing was sprayed with neat thinners, and examined closely after a few minutes, when the thinners had dried or evaporated. No apparent damage could be seen at this stage.
Following this, Revell No. 90 Bright Silver enamel was sprayed onto another small area, and again, there was no detrimental reaction.
The entire wing underside was then sprayed with the Revell enamel, and although there was no apparent reaction, the paint went on streaky and more silver-grey than the normal very bright, shiny silver when used in the past, but very slowly dried to a relatively even finish, losing some of the grey tone, but remaining dull and flat.
The same paint was then sprayed onto the 'hack' model, and gave the normal bright, smooth, even finish.
Conclusion - AK Xtreme Metal does not like being over-sprayed with 'normal' enamels, or at least not metallic enamel, over the previously described base coat and metal finish.
Consequently, I abandoned the idea of re-spraying the entire model with the Revell paint, but instead, sprayed another coat of the Xtreme Metal onto the upper surface of the wing, and part of the fuselage. This was done at 10 psi (dropping to around 6 to 8 psi during continuous spraying), with the coverage being built-up lightly.
There was a very apparent improvement in the finish, with a slightly smoother surface, and some shine and lustre, and I think that a further coat may give a reasonable, but not great, final effect.
The pics below show the results of the tests so far, although due to lighting, the 'grain' is much more evident than it is to the naked eye.
Pic 1. The underside of the wing after spraying the Revell enamel. Note that the shinier, but 'rippled' area at the rear, where the wing meets the fuselage, is the area masked with Tamiya tape ( hence the rippled effect ). The relatively smoother finish here indicates that the AK paints have 'etched' into the painted plastic, but have not had the same effect on the smoother surface of the tape.
Pics 2 and 3. The upper surface of the wing, and the mid section of the fuselage, after a second coat of the Xtreme Metal. Although far from even, or smooth overall, the finish is much better than before, and 'getting there'.
I still want to do some more testing, buffing a small area of the underside of the wing ( sprayed with the Revell enamel ) with aluminium powder, to see if this improves the appearance. If it does, then the rest of the airframe will be re-sprayed with the Xtreme Metal, building up the finish as best as possible.
If the underside can not be improved, then the whole model may be rubbed down, and re-painted in one of the 'solid colour' camouflage schemes instead., at a later date, with this being the most likely route.
Consequently, I'm withdrawing this kit from the GB, but intend to replace it with the Eduard "Weekend Edition" kit, which I've managed to find at a fairly low price, which will be built as the same subject aircraft.
Finally, some 'pointers' for anyone intending to use the AK Xtreme Metal range.
1.) These paints should work fine if sprayed direct to clean, smooth plastic, or over the AK Black Base. Note though, that the latter is mainly intended to give a deeper lustre to the final finish, although it will, apparently, help prevent paint 'lifting' where masking tape is used, when the tape is removed.
2.) These paints do not like being sprayed over a normal enamel base coat, and will react, causing a heavy 'grainy' finish, and at least some bubbling and 'orange peel' effect.
3.) Spraying enamel over these paints could affect the surface finish, and is not recommended. Acrylics over the XM paints will probably be OK, but test first.
4.) These paints have a very strong odour, which, although at first fairly pleasant, does have a detrimental effect after only a few minutes exposure - I still had a sore throat and slightly 'muzzy' head around 18 hours after spraying - use respiratory protection, even if only a dust mask.
5.) These paints stick to metal like sh*t to a blanket. Ensure that your airbrush is thoroughly cleaned immediately after use, using the dedicated AK cleaner / thinners. Then strip down the 'brush and thoroughly clean the needle, paint cup, paint channel, tip and nozzle, re-assemble the the brush, blow through, and clean again with the AK thinners, finally blowing through air at higher pressure, to ensure all traces of the cleaner are removed, and the internals of the 'brush are clean and dry.
This has turned out to be a fairly expensive , and somewhat frustrating learning curve, so I hope this experience, and the tips shown above, may help others at some point.
The model was rubbed down overall, improving the surface finish, but not completely eliminating the 'textured', or grainy - looking surface caused by the reaction of the two paints.
Next step was to test the Xtreme Metal for resistance to normal, thinned enamel, and neat thinners ( white spirit ).
A small area of the underside of the wing was sprayed with neat thinners, and examined closely after a few minutes, when the thinners had dried or evaporated. No apparent damage could be seen at this stage.
Following this, Revell No. 90 Bright Silver enamel was sprayed onto another small area, and again, there was no detrimental reaction.
The entire wing underside was then sprayed with the Revell enamel, and although there was no apparent reaction, the paint went on streaky and more silver-grey than the normal very bright, shiny silver when used in the past, but very slowly dried to a relatively even finish, losing some of the grey tone, but remaining dull and flat.
The same paint was then sprayed onto the 'hack' model, and gave the normal bright, smooth, even finish.
Conclusion - AK Xtreme Metal does not like being over-sprayed with 'normal' enamels, or at least not metallic enamel, over the previously described base coat and metal finish.
Consequently, I abandoned the idea of re-spraying the entire model with the Revell paint, but instead, sprayed another coat of the Xtreme Metal onto the upper surface of the wing, and part of the fuselage. This was done at 10 psi (dropping to around 6 to 8 psi during continuous spraying), with the coverage being built-up lightly.
There was a very apparent improvement in the finish, with a slightly smoother surface, and some shine and lustre, and I think that a further coat may give a reasonable, but not great, final effect.
The pics below show the results of the tests so far, although due to lighting, the 'grain' is much more evident than it is to the naked eye.
Pic 1. The underside of the wing after spraying the Revell enamel. Note that the shinier, but 'rippled' area at the rear, where the wing meets the fuselage, is the area masked with Tamiya tape ( hence the rippled effect ). The relatively smoother finish here indicates that the AK paints have 'etched' into the painted plastic, but have not had the same effect on the smoother surface of the tape.
Pics 2 and 3. The upper surface of the wing, and the mid section of the fuselage, after a second coat of the Xtreme Metal. Although far from even, or smooth overall, the finish is much better than before, and 'getting there'.
I still want to do some more testing, buffing a small area of the underside of the wing ( sprayed with the Revell enamel ) with aluminium powder, to see if this improves the appearance. If it does, then the rest of the airframe will be re-sprayed with the Xtreme Metal, building up the finish as best as possible.
If the underside can not be improved, then the whole model may be rubbed down, and re-painted in one of the 'solid colour' camouflage schemes instead., at a later date, with this being the most likely route.
Consequently, I'm withdrawing this kit from the GB, but intend to replace it with the Eduard "Weekend Edition" kit, which I've managed to find at a fairly low price, which will be built as the same subject aircraft.
Finally, some 'pointers' for anyone intending to use the AK Xtreme Metal range.
1.) These paints should work fine if sprayed direct to clean, smooth plastic, or over the AK Black Base. Note though, that the latter is mainly intended to give a deeper lustre to the final finish, although it will, apparently, help prevent paint 'lifting' where masking tape is used, when the tape is removed.
2.) These paints do not like being sprayed over a normal enamel base coat, and will react, causing a heavy 'grainy' finish, and at least some bubbling and 'orange peel' effect.
3.) Spraying enamel over these paints could affect the surface finish, and is not recommended. Acrylics over the XM paints will probably be OK, but test first.
4.) These paints have a very strong odour, which, although at first fairly pleasant, does have a detrimental effect after only a few minutes exposure - I still had a sore throat and slightly 'muzzy' head around 18 hours after spraying - use respiratory protection, even if only a dust mask.
5.) These paints stick to metal like sh*t to a blanket. Ensure that your airbrush is thoroughly cleaned immediately after use, using the dedicated AK cleaner / thinners. Then strip down the 'brush and thoroughly clean the needle, paint cup, paint channel, tip and nozzle, re-assemble the the brush, blow through, and clean again with the AK thinners, finally blowing through air at higher pressure, to ensure all traces of the cleaner are removed, and the internals of the 'brush are clean and dry.
This has turned out to be a fairly expensive , and somewhat frustrating learning curve, so I hope this experience, and the tips shown above, may help others at some point.
Last edited:
fubar57
General
Glad you got it sorted out Terry. I've never sprayed enamels/lacquers etc., not for health sake but for clean-up. Where I spray is directly below the living room so the fumes would greatly upset SWMBO. One day I'll vent my booth to the outside. I should start spraying my three 104s sometime this week using Tamiya Gloss Black for the undercoat
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- #111
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Not really sorted Geo - I still haven't decided whether to try to achieve a decent metal finish, or bin it for now, and eventually rub it down completely and re-paint in either the blue air defence scheme, or 'desert' camouflage.
Buffing the underside with the aluminium powder didn't work, but I could give it another coat of Revell silver enamel, which would be good enough for the 'blue' scheme, and then rub down the top surfaces, give it a light primer coat, rub down that, and spray the blue.
Either way, this kit will definitely be replaced, in this GB, by the Eduard kit, which is very similar, with the same fit problems apparently - it was thought that the HB kit was a direct copy, but I believe there are some small differences.
Buffing the underside with the aluminium powder didn't work, but I could give it another coat of Revell silver enamel, which would be good enough for the 'blue' scheme, and then rub down the top surfaces, give it a light primer coat, rub down that, and spray the blue.
Either way, this kit will definitely be replaced, in this GB, by the Eduard kit, which is very similar, with the same fit problems apparently - it was thought that the HB kit was a direct copy, but I believe there are some small differences.
- Thread starter
- #113
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Yes, I'll probably do that.
Crimea_River
Marshal
Too bad it didn't turn out
- Thread starter
- #115
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Yep, I'm rather dischuffed about that !
Still, at some point I'll rescue it, and hopefully have a third Mirage on the shelf.
One thing's for sure, I'm going to experiment / practice more with the Xtreme Metal before committing it to a model. I've since seen a couple of builds, coincidentally on Mirage kits, where various problems have been encountered with these paints.
Still, at some point I'll rescue it, and hopefully have a third Mirage on the shelf.
One thing's for sure, I'm going to experiment / practice more with the Xtreme Metal before committing it to a model. I've since seen a couple of builds, coincidentally on Mirage kits, where various problems have been encountered with these paints.
- Thread starter
- #117
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Between 24 and 36 hours, possibly longer. It was fully dry and hard, as I checked it thoroughly.
I also checked the 'hack' model, where I sprayed the Xtreme Metal over enamel, which had been on the model for over 20 years - since spraying, that, too, has crazed, so definitely an incompatibility with the two types of paint.
Although the label states it's enamel, all reviews describe it as a lacquer, and the smell confirms this in my opinion - as do my eyes, throat and raging headache !
I also checked the 'hack' model, where I sprayed the Xtreme Metal over enamel, which had been on the model for over 20 years - since spraying, that, too, has crazed, so definitely an incompatibility with the two types of paint.
Although the label states it's enamel, all reviews describe it as a lacquer, and the smell confirms this in my opinion - as do my eyes, throat and raging headache !
- Thread starter
- #119
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
No problem,
N4521U
Colonel
Ooooooooee. Just looking in.
Tough way to learn Lacquer over Enamel = piano wrinkle finish....
Had a friend with a '29 Ford sedan delivery, his painter did that very thing.
Bright red over enamel primer. I spent two days lettering it, the "TOBACCO SHOP".
After it was stripped and painted again, I spent Another two days replacing the signage.
I think lacquer over acrylic would work, or lacquer over Tamiya rattle can colors or the primers. I think they are all lacquers?
Tough way to learn Lacquer over Enamel = piano wrinkle finish....
Had a friend with a '29 Ford sedan delivery, his painter did that very thing.
Bright red over enamel primer. I spent two days lettering it, the "TOBACCO SHOP".
After it was stripped and painted again, I spent Another two days replacing the signage.
I think lacquer over acrylic would work, or lacquer over Tamiya rattle can colors or the primers. I think they are all lacquers?
