Chocks away!
Senior Airman
Does anyone know about succesfull German pilots that were trained in 1944 / 1945 in difficult conditions? Most of the well known aces were trained early in the war or pre-war and/or had battle experience in spain.
German aces-post 1944
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It is understandable you will hardly know of any names of pilots trained in such period that became aces or succesful. Two relevant reasons for that:
(i) the Luftwaffe was outnumbered by then, and
(ii) the fuel crisis that hit home from mid 1944 to the end of the war.
Training of new pilots got shortened and once they reached service there was not enough fuel for all the Luftwaffe units, so they will certainly not fly that many missions, implying the era of the high scorers had ended for those new pilots of 1944.
The aforementioned does not mean at all, there were no succesful pilots among them.
Training certainly got shortened, not in the fashion the allied historians had put it though; their stories are mostly bunk:
"...lots of German kids in their late teens, who could hardly make it airborne, much less enter a dogfight, got sent into battle against massed formations of both RAF and USAAF".
Illiterate hogwash.
They try to put it like Germany in the air, finished the war fighting the way Japan did.
That the German air effort included desperate measures is totally true, but that they sent totally untrained boys to fight in the air is complete manipulation of facts, if not a deliberate lie.
The Stabstaffel of JG301 had several young pilots who got trained in 1944 and became aces though.
Also, the sturmgruppen of JG3, JG4 and JG300 were formed mostly by very young pilots who became stars in obliterating USAAF formations of heavy bombers.
That many of them died? Yes. Still the allied story has not made a solid case which would prove beyond doubt, such losses were the product of the inadecuay of the German pilots reaching service from mid 1944 to the end of the conflict.
I am convinced their losses were more the product of the ovewhelming numbers of allied planes and not because they were undertrained.
(i) the Luftwaffe was outnumbered by then, and
(ii) the fuel crisis that hit home from mid 1944 to the end of the war.
Training of new pilots got shortened and once they reached service there was not enough fuel for all the Luftwaffe units, so they will certainly not fly that many missions, implying the era of the high scorers had ended for those new pilots of 1944.
The aforementioned does not mean at all, there were no succesful pilots among them.
Training certainly got shortened, not in the fashion the allied historians had put it though; their stories are mostly bunk:
"...lots of German kids in their late teens, who could hardly make it airborne, much less enter a dogfight, got sent into battle against massed formations of both RAF and USAAF".
Illiterate hogwash.
They try to put it like Germany in the air, finished the war fighting the way Japan did.
That the German air effort included desperate measures is totally true, but that they sent totally untrained boys to fight in the air is complete manipulation of facts, if not a deliberate lie.
The Stabstaffel of JG301 had several young pilots who got trained in 1944 and became aces though.
Also, the sturmgruppen of JG3, JG4 and JG300 were formed mostly by very young pilots who became stars in obliterating USAAF formations of heavy bombers.
That many of them died? Yes. Still the allied story has not made a solid case which would prove beyond doubt, such losses were the product of the inadecuay of the German pilots reaching service from mid 1944 to the end of the conflict.
I am convinced their losses were more the product of the ovewhelming numbers of allied planes and not because they were undertrained.
Erich
the old Sage
I would agree overall with Udet's thoughts for day time pilots. To answer for the German Nachtjagd, yes there were several aces that were quite young and came into the war in January of 44 till war's end. My did these boys age fast.......
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Chocks away!
Senior Airman
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Chocks away!
Senior Airman
*and 
There are many books!
About the net, I would not know of any good sites. I hate PC reading; furthermore it is harmful to the sight. (Since I have perfect binocular sight, like the Leopard, Siberian Tiger or Jaguar i do not want to lose it))
General Adolf Galland´s "First and the last" is a highly recommended read.
Also Werner Baumbach´s "Life and Death of the Luftwaffe" is an excellent one. (Baumbach was a bomber ace).
Both show German points of view of course.
There are many others I´ve read that if not exclusively focused on the rise and descent of the Luftwaffe still contribute in adding more elements that help you creating a picture of the Luftwaffe from mid 1944 and on, far clearer than the one the allied babbling has shoved down out throats.
Other helpful sources have been claims casualties lists that are available somewhere on the internet. See losses of allied fighters and bombers in the second half of 1944 and they were everything but low.
Also my conversations with veterans of both sides taught me a hell of a lot.
As to the allied point of view, what could i tell you?? That i´ve read several but they do not vary much on their approach to the issue. It would even appear like they did not bother that much in researching further and simply resorted to either copy the opinions of previous authors or simply join the victor´s drunkness.
The more you read and the more you consult, the more you are likely to learn.
I agree with your last comment.
"Only a handful of the new pilots of 1944 survived the war."
Once again, that is plain flat bullshit.
That the casualty rate was high, reaching 50-55% is true. A casualty rate certainly higher than the one the western allies were experiencing. Though telling only a few "survived" is another allied lie.
What of the Kassel raid of Sept 27, 1944? Read the month: SEPTEMBER, the ninth month of the year.
A 38 strong heavy bomber formation (USAAF) got nearly annihilated when the Sturmböck kids torched 34 of them in a matter of few minutes (38 heavies, 34 destroyed: 380 men in the formation, 340 which did not return, most of them killed).
Could a "band of kinds hardly capable of making it airborne" have ever achieved such a masterful level of destruction?
That is just an isolated case of course; still it helps contradicting the allied fairy tale.
About the net, I would not know of any good sites. I hate PC reading; furthermore it is harmful to the sight. (Since I have perfect binocular sight, like the Leopard, Siberian Tiger or Jaguar i do not want to lose it)
)General Adolf Galland´s "First and the last" is a highly recommended read.
Also Werner Baumbach´s "Life and Death of the Luftwaffe" is an excellent one. (Baumbach was a bomber ace).
Both show German points of view of course.
There are many others I´ve read that if not exclusively focused on the rise and descent of the Luftwaffe still contribute in adding more elements that help you creating a picture of the Luftwaffe from mid 1944 and on, far clearer than the one the allied babbling has shoved down out throats.
Other helpful sources have been claims casualties lists that are available somewhere on the internet. See losses of allied fighters and bombers in the second half of 1944 and they were everything but low.
Also my conversations with veterans of both sides taught me a hell of a lot.
As to the allied point of view, what could i tell you?? That i´ve read several but they do not vary much on their approach to the issue. It would even appear like they did not bother that much in researching further and simply resorted to either copy the opinions of previous authors or simply join the victor´s drunkness.
The more you read and the more you consult, the more you are likely to learn.
I agree with your last comment.
"Only a handful of the new pilots of 1944 survived the war."
Once again, that is plain flat bullshit.
That the casualty rate was high, reaching 50-55% is true. A casualty rate certainly higher than the one the western allies were experiencing. Though telling only a few "survived" is another allied lie.
What of the Kassel raid of Sept 27, 1944? Read the month: SEPTEMBER, the ninth month of the year.
A 38 strong heavy bomber formation (USAAF) got nearly annihilated when the Sturmböck kids torched 34 of them in a matter of few minutes (38 heavies, 34 destroyed: 380 men in the formation, 340 which did not return, most of them killed).
Could a "band of kinds hardly capable of making it airborne" have ever achieved such a masterful level of destruction?
That is just an isolated case of course; still it helps contradicting the allied fairy tale.
mosquitoman
Master Sergeant
Good point, even though the end was nigh for both Germany and Japan, you neglected them at your peril.
KraziKanuK
Banned
- 792
- Jan 26, 2005
EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 650: 1,192 bombers and 678 fighters are dispatched to hit industrial and transportation targets in W Germany and use PFF methods for all targets; 28 bombers and 2 fighters are lost:
1. 421 of 462 B-17s hit a secondary target (Cologne) and 10 others hit Blatzheim; 1 B-17 is damaged beyond repair and 165 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA; 7 WIA and 1 MIA. Escort is provided by 221 P-47s and P-51s aircraft in the air; 3 P-47s are damaged.
2. 415 B-17s are dispatched to hit Ludwigshafen/Opau oil refinery (214) and Mainz (171); 4 others hit targets of opportunity; 2 B-17s are lost and 142 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA, 9 WIA and 19 MIA. Escort is provided by 212 P-47s and P-51s; 1 P-47 is damaged.
3. 315 B-24s are dispatched to hit Kassel/Henschel aircraft plant (248); 35 also hit Gottingen; 26 B-24s are lost, 6 damaged beyond repair and 41 damaged; 20 airmen are KIA, 2 WIA and 245 MIA. Escort is provided by 207 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s and 5-0-1 on the ground; 2 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA), 1 P-51 damaged beyond repair, and 2 P-38s and 2 P-47s damaged.
Mission 651: 8 of 10 B-17s drop leaflets in France, the Netherlands and
Germany during the night.
163 B-24s on a TRUCKIN' mission carry fuel to France.
from http://www.altus.af.mil/History/historycombat.htm
STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 650: 1,192 bombers and 678 fighters are dispatched to hit industrial and transportation targets in W Germany and use PFF methods for all targets; 28 bombers and 2 fighters are lost:
1. 421 of 462 B-17s hit a secondary target (Cologne) and 10 others hit Blatzheim; 1 B-17 is damaged beyond repair and 165 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA; 7 WIA and 1 MIA. Escort is provided by 221 P-47s and P-51s aircraft in the air; 3 P-47s are damaged.
2. 415 B-17s are dispatched to hit Ludwigshafen/Opau oil refinery (214) and Mainz (171); 4 others hit targets of opportunity; 2 B-17s are lost and 142 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA, 9 WIA and 19 MIA. Escort is provided by 212 P-47s and P-51s; 1 P-47 is damaged.
3. 315 B-24s are dispatched to hit Kassel/Henschel aircraft plant (248); 35 also hit Gottingen; 26 B-24s are lost, 6 damaged beyond repair and 41 damaged; 20 airmen are KIA, 2 WIA and 245 MIA. Escort is provided by 207 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s and 5-0-1 on the ground; 2 P-51s are lost (pilots MIA), 1 P-51 damaged beyond repair, and 2 P-38s and 2 P-47s damaged.
Mission 651: 8 of 10 B-17s drop leaflets in France, the Netherlands and
Germany during the night.
163 B-24s on a TRUCKIN' mission carry fuel to France.
from http://www.altus.af.mil/History/historycombat.htm
Erich
the old Sage
6 months to Oblivion has quite a few inaccuracies. would suggest the German or Englsih titles by Dr. Jochen Prien on the German fighter group histories instead. Some can be obtained in English from Schiffer publications
KK the so-called official US history is incorrect on many an occassion. I have quite a bit of info from the 445th bg and the Luftw. Sturmgruppen that fought them on 27 Septmeber 44. In fact there is still some materials on our old web-pages that Lunetic put up via another thread on best overall weapon.
In regards to losses the 445th lost 32 B-24's. 18 to the first pass by SturmFw's of the IV.Sturm/JG 3 unit. Within a minute JG 4 and JG 300 together came in from the rear and took out the remainder of B-24's totaling 32 destroyed. 2 of these were able to escape the carnage to crash elsewhere........CAT E destroyed so they are counted in the total.
JG 3 Sturm lost 0 a/c.
JG 4 SturmFw's lost 7 a/c
JG 300 SturmFw's lost 7 a/c
the high cover gruppe I./JG 300 flying the Bf 109G-6 lost 4.
the 445th bg made a fatal wrong turn and were intercepted and only through the cries over the intercom did the Yellowjackets-361st fg come to the B-24's rescue and shot down much of the remaining JG 4 and JG 300 a/c for a loss of 1 P-51.
the Kassel mission has been one I have studied for the past 20 years and am a member of the old KMMA association, and have received all their periodicals. In fact I am helping the 445th bg unit assoc write the book on the Kassel mission although I have to admit an English author is wiritng his own on the fatal battle. Must get a cup of Kaffee and I am losing sense...........that figures..........
KK the so-called official US history is incorrect on many an occassion. I have quite a bit of info from the 445th bg and the Luftw. Sturmgruppen that fought them on 27 Septmeber 44. In fact there is still some materials on our old web-pages that Lunetic put up via another thread on best overall weapon.
In regards to losses the 445th lost 32 B-24's. 18 to the first pass by SturmFw's of the IV.Sturm/JG 3 unit. Within a minute JG 4 and JG 300 together came in from the rear and took out the remainder of B-24's totaling 32 destroyed. 2 of these were able to escape the carnage to crash elsewhere........CAT E destroyed so they are counted in the total.
JG 3 Sturm lost 0 a/c.
JG 4 SturmFw's lost 7 a/c
JG 300 SturmFw's lost 7 a/c
the high cover gruppe I./JG 300 flying the Bf 109G-6 lost 4.
the 445th bg made a fatal wrong turn and were intercepted and only through the cries over the intercom did the Yellowjackets-361st fg come to the B-24's rescue and shot down much of the remaining JG 4 and JG 300 a/c for a loss of 1 P-51.
the Kassel mission has been one I have studied for the past 20 years and am a member of the old KMMA association, and have received all their periodicals. In fact I am helping the 445th bg unit assoc write the book on the Kassel mission although I have to admit an English author is wiritng his own on the fatal battle. Must get a cup of Kaffee and I am losing sense...........that figures..........
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Senior Airman
Iwas considering that one. Thanks mate looks like i'll check it outGT said:
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Chocks away!
Senior Airman
kick the tires, light the fires and last man off is a sissie!!! 
Linda Alice Dewey
Recruit
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- Jun 3, 2007
Hi,
The air battle known as the Kassel Mission involved 35 US B-24's from the 445th BG. They were attacked by at least 150 FW-190's and Me-109's.
Of the 35 bombers, 25 crashed within a 15 mile radius in central Germany, 2 crash landed in Belgium, 2 in France, 1 (my father's) made an emergency landing at Manston in England, 5 more made it back to Tibenham, but 1 was waved around and crashed when it lost a third motor.
The numbers of dead in the initial post are vastly overstated. 117 US airmen died, the rest who did not land in another country were POW's.
The rest of the story is that the Germans and Americans involved in the Kassel Mission battle reunited and dedicated a huge memorial dedicated to the men of both sides who died 9-27-1944--at the site where the lead crew (below) crashed. The Kassel Mission Historical Society has hosted several trips to the air base at Tibenham--hosted by our English friends-- and to the crash sites in Germany, hosted by our former German enemies/now friends.
We'd love to have you come along.
The air battle known as the Kassel Mission involved 35 US B-24's from the 445th BG. They were attacked by at least 150 FW-190's and Me-109's.
Of the 35 bombers, 25 crashed within a 15 mile radius in central Germany, 2 crash landed in Belgium, 2 in France, 1 (my father's) made an emergency landing at Manston in England, 5 more made it back to Tibenham, but 1 was waved around and crashed when it lost a third motor.
The numbers of dead in the initial post are vastly overstated. 117 US airmen died, the rest who did not land in another country were POW's.
The rest of the story is that the Germans and Americans involved in the Kassel Mission battle reunited and dedicated a huge memorial dedicated to the men of both sides who died 9-27-1944--at the site where the lead crew (below) crashed. The Kassel Mission Historical Society has hosted several trips to the air base at Tibenham--hosted by our English friends-- and to the crash sites in Germany, hosted by our former German enemies/now friends.
We'd love to have you come along.
drgondog
Major
Udet - you have perhaps the most compelling Avatar -it guarantees that someone (including me ) will look at your post
"As to the allied point of view, what could i tell you?? That i´ve read several but they do not vary much on their approach to the issue. It would even appear like they did not bother that much in researching further and simply resorted to either copy the opinions of previous authors or simply join the victor´s drunkness."
Udet - Gee, THAT about sums it up doesn't it?
You said to the statement- "Only a handful of the new pilots of 1944 survived the war."
"Once again, that is plain flat bullshit."
"That the casualty rate was high, reaching 50-55% is true. A casualty rate certainly higher than the one the western allies were experiencing. Though telling only a few "survived" is another allied lie."
Agreed - fortunately the LW was generally jumping ship over their own territory. Being shot down is a casualty figure, being KIA is a different. What are your figures on the numbers of LW shot down per combat engagement?
You said -"What of the Kassel raid of Sept 27, 1944? Read the month: SEPTEMBER, the ninth month of the year."
I would add - what about 24 and 29 April, or 7 July or 26 November - but pressed to name another example. The LW managed to get local superiority in several major encounters in 1944 after Mustangs fully operational - and shoot down a lot of B-24s and B-17s in the process. April 24, 29 and July 7 and Septemner 27, and November 26. What other actions do you want to illustrate as heavy casualites inflicted versus heavy casualties incurred" Would you say that it is a lie that the Allies achieved air supremacy from April 1944 forward? If not what?
You said "Could a band of kinds hardly capable of making it airborne have ever achieved such a masterful level of destruction?"
Actually no. Anyone that would say the LW was either cowardly or 'ineffectual" is just silly. But anybody who would say that the LW scored at will and wreaked havoc on any more than a few isolated days after April is perhaps blinded to loyalty to the Luftwaffe - and equally non -objective??
You said "That is just an isolated case of course; still it helps contradicting the allied fairy tale."
How many Fairy Tales do you want to debunk.
Let's see, from April 1 1944 there were approximately 290 days of airborne combat ops over Germany. How many days would you propose as victories for the Luftwaffe in that period?
I am not trying to be unkind but I am curious regarding the fact base you carry to support your proposition that proponents of Allied Air superiority in that span of time are drunkards and liars?
Regards,
Bill
"As to the allied point of view, what could i tell you?? That i´ve read several but they do not vary much on their approach to the issue. It would even appear like they did not bother that much in researching further and simply resorted to either copy the opinions of previous authors or simply join the victor´s drunkness."
Udet - Gee, THAT about sums it up doesn't it?
You said to the statement- "Only a handful of the new pilots of 1944 survived the war."
"Once again, that is plain flat bullshit."
"That the casualty rate was high, reaching 50-55% is true. A casualty rate certainly higher than the one the western allies were experiencing. Though telling only a few "survived" is another allied lie."
Agreed - fortunately the LW was generally jumping ship over their own territory. Being shot down is a casualty figure, being KIA is a different. What are your figures on the numbers of LW shot down per combat engagement?
You said -"What of the Kassel raid of Sept 27, 1944? Read the month: SEPTEMBER, the ninth month of the year."
I would add - what about 24 and 29 April, or 7 July or 26 November - but pressed to name another example. The LW managed to get local superiority in several major encounters in 1944 after Mustangs fully operational - and shoot down a lot of B-24s and B-17s in the process. April 24, 29 and July 7 and Septemner 27, and November 26. What other actions do you want to illustrate as heavy casualites inflicted versus heavy casualties incurred" Would you say that it is a lie that the Allies achieved air supremacy from April 1944 forward? If not what?
You said "Could a band of kinds hardly capable of making it airborne have ever achieved such a masterful level of destruction?"
Actually no. Anyone that would say the LW was either cowardly or 'ineffectual" is just silly. But anybody who would say that the LW scored at will and wreaked havoc on any more than a few isolated days after April is perhaps blinded to loyalty to the Luftwaffe - and equally non -objective??
You said "That is just an isolated case of course; still it helps contradicting the allied fairy tale."
How many Fairy Tales do you want to debunk.
Let's see, from April 1 1944 there were approximately 290 days of airborne combat ops over Germany. How many days would you propose as victories for the Luftwaffe in that period?
I am not trying to be unkind but I am curious regarding the fact base you carry to support your proposition that proponents of Allied Air superiority in that span of time are drunkards and liars?
Regards,
Bill
Erich
the old Sage
let me give a brief reply, my last installment was in 2005 more than 2 years ago, alot of new info has been researched and stuck in my data files .........
let us not forget Sept. 11, 12, 1944
October 6 and 7th 1944
November 2nd 1944
and even in December 23, 44 the mysterious and not known aerial battle with Fw 190A-8's of I./JG 11 and A-8's A-8/R8's of IV.Sturm/JG 3 that took out 38 B-26's with which the B-26 groups are reluctant to share ..........182 B-26's were damaged
December 24, 44 when the 487th bg was assailed by SturmFw's of JG 3 while still over Belgium, General Castle going down with his B-17.
yes the LW was still effective and not quite a broken unit although overwhelmed they could not stem the tide of the Allied might ..........
let us not forget Sept. 11, 12, 1944
October 6 and 7th 1944
November 2nd 1944
and even in December 23, 44 the mysterious and not known aerial battle with Fw 190A-8's of I./JG 11 and A-8's A-8/R8's of IV.Sturm/JG 3 that took out 38 B-26's with which the B-26 groups are reluctant to share ..........182 B-26's were damaged
December 24, 44 when the 487th bg was assailed by SturmFw's of JG 3 while still over Belgium, General Castle going down with his B-17.
yes the LW was still effective and not quite a broken unit although overwhelmed they could not stem the tide of the Allied might ..........
drgondog
Major
I grant say 5 or 6 more days, Erich, w/o debating what he balance was - still leaves 280 days to discuss. For example neither 2 November or 6 October were great days for the LW even if they inflicted numbers on the USAAF.
I just remain cautiously judgemental that the LW was largely downhill fast after March 1944.. willing to be convinced I/m wrong
Bodenplatte should have been big time reversal if only for a month - but it wasn't
High Regards,
Bill
I just remain cautiously judgemental that the LW was largely downhill fast after March 1944.. willing to be convinced I/m wrong
Bodenplatte should have been big time reversal if only for a month - but it wasn't
High Regards,
Bill
Erich
the old Sage
Bill :
I truly believe it was Normandie. If you could look at the losses by so many of the Luftwaffe day fighter gruppen during the months of June-August end it is almost knumbing. Literally a/c and pilots were gone and the whole system had to be revamped, time for another staffel to be added per gruppe with fresh raw pilots to be killed, wounded and or maimed.
Just wanted to point out that there were other late dates that the LW struck back and did. But they were a shambles and the end for them was drawing near .........
I truly believe it was Normandie. If you could look at the losses by so many of the Luftwaffe day fighter gruppen during the months of June-August end it is almost knumbing. Literally a/c and pilots were gone and the whole system had to be revamped, time for another staffel to be added per gruppe with fresh raw pilots to be killed, wounded and or maimed.
Just wanted to point out that there were other late dates that the LW struck back and did. But they were a shambles and the end for them was drawing near .........
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
I have to agree with Erich and others but LW wasn't that far downhill after March 44.
From Dr. Price - Last Year of The Luftwaffe - pg 121
10 January 1945
"At this time the total number of servicable aircraft deployed in combat units 4,566, was slightly greater than at the end of May 1944. However during the previous seven months the composition of the LW had changed greatly."
They had the machines, personnel were still coming into the units - but - shortage of fuel, overwhelming numbers, loss of airfields and radar stations along with basic training and/or training on new types was curtailing operations. 400 fighters would've done well in 1940 but by 1945 when your up against 1,000 bombers with 800 fighters even "old heads" sometimes come out on the losing end.
From Dr. Price - Last Year of The Luftwaffe - pg 121
10 January 1945
"At this time the total number of servicable aircraft deployed in combat units 4,566, was slightly greater than at the end of May 1944. However during the previous seven months the composition of the LW had changed greatly."
They had the machines, personnel were still coming into the units - but - shortage of fuel, overwhelming numbers, loss of airfields and radar stations along with basic training and/or training on new types was curtailing operations. 400 fighters would've done well in 1940 but by 1945 when your up against 1,000 bombers with 800 fighters even "old heads" sometimes come out on the losing end.
