German Aircraft that could deliver The Bomb

[pbehn]

The answer to the OP's question is, of course, none of them: Germany had approximately no chance of nuclear weapons, as the German scientists were running at low speed down a blind alley.

And some were working on the Manhattan project.

 

[BlackSheep]

For the record, I am not a Nazi, pro-Nazi, nor did I feel any of the material I linked to was or I would not have bothered reading or sharing it.

 

[RCAFson]

IF, and that is a BIG if that such a thing even existed. The original source might be a book on airfields in Oxfordshire under the listing of RAF Enstone with little substantial fact behind it. Mark Felton's youtube video is riddled with inaccuracies, which lets his otherwise interesting take on the subject down - and I wouldn't rely on the Wiki page on Enstone, which references Felton's video - eek!

Let's put it this way, the Lancaster was listed as the only aircraft that could carry the Thin Man bomb internally, but both Groves in charge of the Manhattan Project and Gen Arnold expressly stipulated an American type. The Lancaster was never considered for carrying either Little Boy or Fat Man operationally by the Americans. Dr Ramsay, who suggested the Lancaster in his 1943 report proposed that it might be available for trials, but again, Arnold rejected the proposal for the same reason as earlier.

I'm sorry but the historical record is pretty clear that the Lancaster was considered and was specifically mentioned as such by Groves himself:

This is from the US Army's official History of the Manhattan Project:
MANHATTAN: THE ARMY AND THE ATOMIC BOMB
( p. 510)
"with their own atomic weapon. But Hewlett and An-
derson (New World, p. 253) note that earlier devel-
opments all pointed to Japan, not Germany, as the
ultimate target for the bomb. As early as May 1943,
the Military Policy Committee (see MPC Min, 5 May
43, OGG Files, Gen Corresp, MP Files, Fldr 23, Tab A,
MDR) concluded that the optimum target would
be the Japanese fleet anchored at Truk. Then in
September of that year choice of the new B-29,
scheduled for employment in the Pacific Theater,
over the British Lancaster seemed to imply that the
bomb was to be used against Japan. See Ch. XXVL...

( p. 520)
...The two leaders next took up the
question of what type of airplane
would be required to - transport
atomic bombs. The Manhattan com-
mander noted that Oppenheimer, on
the basis of investigations carried out
at Los Alamos and Muroc Army Air
Field, had concluded that a modified
B-29 probably had the requisite
weight-carrying capacity and range.
Should the B-29, which had gone
into production in September 1943,
prove not feasible, Groves suggested
the British Lancaster would have to
be considered. - This - displeased
Arnold, who stated emphatically that
an American-made airplane should
carry the bombs, and he promised to
make a special effort to have a B-29
available for that purpose... "

 

[GrauGeist]

Unlike the Manhattan project, where the teams of scientists worked together in cooperation, the teams of German scientists worked independant of each other often with little communication or knowledge sharing.

 

[pbehn]

Unlike the Manhattan project, where the teams of scientists worked together in cooperation, the teams of German scientists worked independant of each other often with little communication or knowledge sharing.

And massively less resources. My local community centre was the former home of the owner/manager of one of the local refineries (ICI). After the war one room was found completely lined with lead, it was used in the early work to do with concentration of "heavy water".

 

[Propellorhead]

I am going to have to dig out my articles but I remember reading about a sighting of a German bomber off the coast of New England, I believe. The story talked about the bomber going down, witnesses being asked to keep quiet, and years later divers recovering a German airplane engine. The most interesting, and pertinent to this thread, tidbit talked about the Nazis' choice of bomb design. Apparently, there were two ways to go about building an atomic weapon, the way we did which weighed several thousand tons and an alternate way which came in at under a hundred pounds. That being the case, the bomber would only need to be capable of long flights.

Anyone who may have seen the article, I seem to remember it discussed a Soviet regiment that was decimated by a Nazi wonder weapon, which left the battlefield charred and the Soviets blaming it on a chemical attack. The same article also stated that Churchill threatened to use anthrax on German livestock, if they continued to pursue that course of warfare.

Sorry, so off topic, but the thought of a lightweight atomic weapon in the hands of an air force lacking the types and numbers of 4-engine bombers as the allies really intrigued me.

A SIX engine German aircraft was seen going down in flames off Owl Head Maine, in Sept 1944. A few years ago a diver from Vermont posted discovery of the wreck of a six engine Junkers plane on the seabed near Owl Head. He linked ot to a sighting by hos late aunt in WW2 which she was warned during the war to keep quiet about. The diver posted this on Twelve O'CLOCK High, then repeated his discovery on Uboat.net. This would infer that in late 1944 Sept or October there were three Ju390 flying.

 

[swampyankee]

And some were working on the Manhattan project.

True. The nazis found one of downsides of being racist filth.

 

[Propellorhead]

No it isn't, you cannot make a nuclear bomb that weighs a bit more than a big girls hand bag. If you want to show me handbag sized nuclear weapons from the 1940s I am very interested but I know, since I worked as a qualified radiographer, that such technology in ionising radiation didn't exist in the 1940s and actually doesn't exist now.

Nuclear weapons can be miniaturised, by use of boosted fission. With boosted fission a Grapefruit sized sphere of Low Enriched Uranium is coated with Lithium Deuteride then explosively compressed by a hollow charge explosive with a Lithium metal liner. UNDER compression Lithium & Deuterium create a nuclear fusion reaction, releasing a large flux of neutrons. BY THIS method the fissile mass attains criticality without requiring a critical mass. The Nazis figured this out in 1942.
Dr Richter who went to Argentina after WW2 FIRST DISCOVERED Nuclear Fusion in 1936 at a Lithium blast furnace in the Sudeten land in 1936.
Using this method by first creating Fusion one can boost or trigger nuclear fission in Uranium or Plutonium. hence the term boosted fission.

It is ironic that after WW2 Nazi nuclear Scientist Prof Kurt Deibner taught US nuclear scientists in 1948 how to miniaturize nukes. using wartime Nazi science. DURING 1943-44 two Nazi scientists Schumann & Trinks developed a lightweight low yield nuclear warhead. There is classified British evidence (bugged conversations of General Walther Dornberger with a fellow general in British captivity) stating that Hitler intended to use V-2 armed with these Schumann Trinks nuclear warheads against London.

 

[Propellorhead]

The reliability of the A-4/V-2 would have made a questionable delivery system, even if a device small enough for it to carry could have been developed in that time frame.

Dornberger was secretly recorded in British captivity referring to Hitler's plans to deploy the V-2 rocket with small nuclear warheads developed by Schumann & Trinks for Heereswaffenamt. In American captivity Goering boasted he had a 5 kilogram nuclear warhead.

 

[Propellorhead]

There have been threads on the Lancaster's ability to drop the Bomb. The Black Lancaster's were trained as a back up for the Bomb delivery. If Germany had developed a Bomb, what aircraft could have delivered a 5000 kg device?

The He 277 could have dropped a 7,084kg Nuclear device from a 49,210ft service ceiling altitude. The Hiroshima bomb weighed 4,800kg

 

[nuuumannn]

I'm sorry but the historical record is pretty clear that the Lancaster was considered and was specifically mentioned as such by Groves himself:

Go back and re-read my statement in full, RCAFson and then come back with a better counter argument. I am not saying it wasn't. This is what I said specifically:

"The Lancaster was never considered for carrying either Little Boy or Fat Man operationally by the Americans."

Which it wasn't. This is the extent to which the Lancaster was considered. Ramsay raised it in a report as the only aircraft that could carry Thin Man, Groves approached Hap Arnold with the suggestion based on Ramsay's report, but Arnold rejected it and it was also suggested it could be used to test drop Thin Man in lieu of B-29s owing to production difficulties, but again this was rejected.

Let's look at what's being said here:

Then in
September of that year choice of the new B-29,
scheduled for employment in the Pacific Theater,
over the British Lancaster seemed to imply that the
bomb was to be used against Japan.

This is clearly following Ramsay's report, released in September 1943 and clearly shows the Lancaster NOT being considered.

Groves suggested
the British Lancaster would have to
be considered.

This is a suggestion by Groves that it MIGHT have to be considered if the B-29 proves troublesome - IT IS NOT a definite consideration of use.

The latter can be referenced in this overview written by Ramsay and helpfully annotated by some fella in full on the net:

http://www.alternatewars.com/WW2/WW2_Documents/War_Department/MED/History_of_Project_A.htm

It has the following statement regarding the suggestion of use of the Lancaster for trials in lieu of B-29s:

"In view of the critical shortage of B-29s it was at first proposed that a British Lancaster be used for the test work even though a B-29 would almost certainly be used as the combat ship. The Air Forces, however, wisely recommended that a B-29 be used for the test work as well, both to avoid non-standard maintenance and to accumulate experience in B-29 operations with such a bomb."

So, I stand by my statement that the Lancaster WAS NOT CONSIDERED OPERATIONALLY by the Americans.

 

[Propellorhead]

BlackSheep-

The Nazis were nowhere in the ballpark of having a nuclear weapon. There was no "secret atomic weapon" used against the Soviets. A good book that investigates the rather slight attempt made by Germany to develop atomic weapons is Heisenberg's War by Powers.

In addition to an assessment of the Nazi efforts it discussed the Allied intelligence work done to ensure that any attempts would be destroyed. A realistic attempt to develop the infrastructure to make a bomb would have received constant and priority bombardment day and night. The efforts went to far as to put Moe Berg a former major league catcher of all things in the audience of one of Heisenberg's lectures in Switzerland during the war. Berg had a gun in his pocket and if Heisenberg said anything that indicated he knew how to work on a bomb he was going to shoot him.

It is an interesting read and really highlights how futile the Nazi war aims were.

Heisenberg was never involved in the nuclear bomb project, He fiddled endlessly trying to create a nuclear reactor. Diebner & Schumann were leading scientists on the German A-bomb. Heisenberg was only on the periphery.

 

[RCAFson]

Go back and re-read my statement in full, RCAFson and then come back with a better counter argument. I am not saying it wasn't. This is what I said specifically:

"The Lancaster was never considered for carrying either Little Boy or Fat Man operationally by the Americans."

Which it wasn't. This is the extent to which the Lancaster was considered. Ramsay raised it in a report as the only aircraft that could carry Thin Man, Groves approached Hap Arnold with the suggestion based on Ramsay's report, but Arnold rejected it and it was also suggested it could be used to test drop Thin Man in lieu of B-29s owing to production difficulties, but again this was rejected.

Let's look at what's being said here:



This is clearly following Ramsay's report, released in September 1943 and clearly shows the Lancaster NOT being considered.



This is a suggestion by Groves that it MIGHT have to be considered if the B-29 proves troublesome - IT IS NOT a definite consideration of use.

The latter can be referenced in this overview written by Ramsay and helpfully annotated by some fella in full on the net:

http://www.alternatewars.com/WW2/WW2_Documents/War_Department/MED/History_of_Project_A.htm

It has the following statement regarding the suggestion of use of the Lancaster for trials in lieu of B-29s:

"In view of the critical shortage of B-29s it was at first proposed that a British Lancaster be used for the test work even though a B-29 would almost certainly be used as the combat ship. The Air Forces, however, wisely recommended that a B-29 be used for the test work as well, both to avoid non-standard maintenance and to accumulate experience in B-29 operations with such a bomb."

So, I stand by my statement that the Lancaster WAS NOT CONSIDERED OPERATIONALLY by the Americans.

The sources state that the Lancaster was carefully considered but not used because the B-29 overcame it's initial issues. The only two aircraft that were considered for A-bomb delivery, according to the official histories were the Lancaster and B-29.

 

[nuuumannn]

The only two aircraft that were considered for A-bomb delivery, according to the official histories were the Lancaster and B-29.

Be specific, for carriage of the THIN MAN only, which was cancelled.

 

[ThomasP]

Hey Propellorhead,

Just In case you do not already know this, virtually all the information in your posts#48&49 is incorrect.

Also, you are spelling your user name incorrectly, "Propellor . . " should be Propeller . . . Not a big deal, just though you should know.

 

[nuuumannn]

A SIX engine German aircraft was seen going down in flames off Owl Head Maine, in Sept 1944. A few years ago a diver from Vermont posted discovery of the wreck of a six engine Junkers plane on the seabed near Owl Head. He linked ot to a sighting by hos late aunt in WW2 which she was warned during the war to keep quiet about. The diver posted this on Twelve O'CLOCK High, then repeated his discovery on Uboat.net. This would infer that in late 1944 Sept or October there were three Ju390 flying.

This is a myth. There is no record whatsoever of any German aircraft having made such a flight. There was only two Ju 390s built and their fates can be verified. The prototype, which has been alleged to have made a flight to within sight of New York, but is roundly regarded as fiction based on no records surviving of such a thing nor eye-witness testimony from the Germans themselves that such a thing took place and if it did there would be evidence of it - was scrapped at the end of WW2 and the second prototype never flew and was scrapped incomplete.

There are plenty of records from the time of Ju 290s making long distance flights, including to Japan, yet no mention of such an achievement in any archive, nor eye-witness testimony or anything.

 

[RCAFson]

Be specific, for carriage of the THIN MAN only, which was cancelled.

We've had this discussion before:

MS-469: THIN MAN, FAT MAN, AND THE SILVER PLATED PULLMAN
By the late fall of 1943, the ballistic problems of the plutonium gun bomb had been largely solved with improved tail surfaces and better weight balance. As its internal arrangements became more firmly established, the casing's layout was modified to follow suit. The final 'pod' or Cornog model (named after a design team member) featured a rounded, bulbous nose to house the fuzing arrangements and the muzzle plug - the 'anvil' - that was to hold the plutonium target, and a long, slender body with an elongated box tail. The full-size models were 18 feet long, and the design team estimated that the final product would weigh about 7,500 pounds.

Scale model air-drops continued on into the winter at Dahlgren, but it had become obvious that another site was needed. The air near Chesapeake Bay was hazy, and full-sized model testing would have to be conducted from as high as 30,000 feet; good visibility was important. But security was also a concern - there were too many curious eyes in eastern Virginia. Parsons and Ramsey began searching for an alternative test site. In the meantime, Los Alamos scientists and engineers had also made progress in working out the practicalities of an implosion bomb. Its arrangements would be quite different from the plutonium gun weapon, however, and that meant that the search for a suitable bomber had to be expanded. In September, Ramsey was instructed to find an aircraft with a bomb bay that could carry a weapon weighing as much as 9,500 pounds. Unlike the long, slender plutonium gun, this new bomb had to be ball-shaped to contain the bulky explosive charges; Los Alamos' best guess was that the new design could be up to six feet in diameter.

Ramsey quickly concluded that there were only two Allied bombers capable of carrying both weapons: the Boeing B-29 (if suitably modified) and the Avro Lancaster. The Lancaster had ample room internally, and it was a prodigious weight lifter; it almost won the contest. In fact, Ramsey traveled to Canada in October 1943 to meet with Roy Chadwick, the Lancaster's chief designer. As luck would have it, Chadwick had crossed the Atlantic to view Lancasters being built at the Avro Canada works in Toronto, and Ramsey seized the chance to show Chadwick some preliminary sketches of both the gun and the implosion weapon casings. Chadwick assured Ramsey that the Lancaster could accommodate either bomb and promised whatever support might be needed, but he was well-used to wartime secrecy; Chadwick did not ask why the weapons had such unusual shapes.


Operation Silverplate - The Aircraft of the Manhattan Project

 

[nuuumannn]

Not gonna give up, are you... As I said, keep digging...

 

[RCAFson]

Not gonna give up, are you... As I said, keep digging...

You have a very clear statement presented to you that the Lancaster was considered for THIN MAN and FATMAN. It's time for you to accept that.

 

[Shortround6]

Owl Head Maine

It is Owls Head with an "S". it is on the west shore of Penobscot Bay, it is around 50 miles From Portland and there are a crap load of Islands to the east in the middle of the Bay

That there was only one (or one who talked) witness to this seems rather incredible. Not to mention the amount of traffic through the area in terms of fishing boats (lobster pots) and sardine fishing since the war.