German B-24 infiltrating US B-24 formations?

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by B-17engineer, Jul 2, 2013.

  1. B-17engineer

    B-17engineer Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2007
    Messages:
    14,953
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    model builder
    Location:
    Revis Island.
    Reading a book here and it states

    "As group withdrew from bombers, concord Tessel at 1322 hours, Group leader notified by Bomber intercom that a German B-24 was in formation with one of the B-24 boxes."

    This was on November 26th,1943

    Col. Joe Mason said, " orbited with flight to encounter [the supposed German bomber] but could not locate enemy aircraft."

    Thoughts on this?
     
  2. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Messages:
    7,528
    Likes Received:
    947
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Unlikely and the source for these claims is dubious (I'm being polite). I note that in the case above no such aircraft was actually found and confirmed.

    The Germans certainly flew captured aircraft, B-17s and B-24s being no exception, but they were generally clearly marked with German national markings and often large areas of yellow paint to protect them from the Luftwaffe's fighters and flak.

    Would you fancy flying or landing a lone B-24 or B-17 in US markings over or in German airspace, particularly when there were genuine US bombers in the area?

    All fighter pilots loved a straggler.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  3. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,203
    Likes Received:
    786
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    Captured B-17s and B-24 were said used to monitor and infultrate allied bomber streams on more than one occasion....

    "On a February 1945 741st BS mission against Vienna, "Before reaching the target, a 'phantom' B-24 joined our formation.…The P-51s [of the Tuskegee Airmen] came in and over the radio…the German phantom pilot said he was from the 55th Wing and got lost. But the 55th Wing wasn't flying that day and the plane had no tail markings. The fighter pilot squadron leader gave him some bursts from his guns and warned the phantom to turn back. He added, 'You will be escorted.' The German pilot replied that he could make it alone. The P-51 pilot said: 'You are going to be escorted whether you want it or not. You're going to have two men on your tail all the way back and don't try to land in Yugoslavia.'…The phantom left with his escort and we heard nothing further from the event."

    Erling Kindem"


    Kampfgeschwader 200 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  4. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,203
    Likes Received:
    786
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    "On 1 December 1943 a B-17 was sighted with the letters "D" above another identification letter "B". It also had a square marking, that of the 303rd Bomb Group. This was the identity of B-17F-111-BO 42-30604 Badger Beauty V, actually from the 350th Bomb Group of the "Bloody Century" 100 BG, which used the "square-D" tail marking in service. This machine was captured but it was never repaired or used by the Luftwaffe. When re-captured the B-17 was preserved in Boeing's museum, but is not known to still be in existence in the 21st century. On the same day, a lone B-24 joined a bomber formation from the 44th Bomb Group. It was reported to have been a machine carrying the markings of a 392nd Bomb Group aircraft. However this unit did not become operational until 9 December."

    Geoffrey Thomas: KG200: Luftwaffe’s Most Secret Squadron, Hikoki Publications, August 2004, ISBN 1902109333
     
  5. Balljoint

    Balljoint Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2012
    Messages:
    325
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Boulder, CO
    There was a similar such report in Ambrose’ The Wild Blue about George McGovern’s experience as a B-24 pilot. Ambrose is not an ideal source, but over Austria during the period reported there was little LW air activity, just FLAK. Apparently the purpose was to report bomber box altitude to the FLAK units.
     
  6. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    13,090
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Platonic Sphere
    the use of captured equipment was to teach young LW crews in the proper useage of tactics, in the case of the US 15th Af there would be no LW unit using these as they were not stationed that far south, and when used from a so-called safe distance it was for target direction only.
     
  7. Greyman

    Greyman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    711
    Likes Received:
    130
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I've read of a few occasions in which a Bomber Command aircraft was tailed (despite course changes/evasion) by what the crews swear was a B-17.
     
  8. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2010
    Messages:
    3,811
    Likes Received:
    181
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    i have heard these stories before not only with bombers but fighters as well joining up in formations. but have yet to come across an official lw document or lw pilot testifying they did this. i tend to give some creedence to phantom 51s in the bomber box stories. what better way to pinpint your enemies postion and possible target than to go along for the ride with them....act as a forward observer for your AA and give course and alt. my father swore he once saw a 51 leading ( not being chased ) a flight of 3 109s blow past him.
     
  9. B-17engineer

    B-17engineer Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2007
    Messages:
    14,953
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    model builder
    Location:
    Revis Island.
    Well the same book said at the end of the war after capture Göring said the Luftwaffe did not do this

    But then again how could Goring oversee each and every unit, could Milch or someone else ordered something like this? Granted Göring would've known had Milch done it
     
  10. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    13,090
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Platonic Sphere
    essentially by late 1943 the LW ground techs had already sound equipment in place to follow the course/direction and altitude of the US bomber formations this is what ground control would radio in to Gruppe Kommandeurs on Lw A/C during intercept flights. captured equipment was not even needed.

    interesting sometimes the mythical proportions of a possible sighting where leads.
     
  11. B-17engineer

    B-17engineer Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2007
    Messages:
    14,953
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    model builder
    Location:
    Revis Island.
    "5 camouflaged shiny olive colored p-51s with white spinners, no identification on tails; only white star insignia; vicinity of Havelberg and Wittenberge--1515hrs at 22,000 feet -- one plane joined with four others and came in from the rear and side into the bombers knocking one B-17 down."

    That was from 487th FS, 352nd FG

    The book suggests maybe they were Yak-9s but I don't buy that
     
  12. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    13,090
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Platonic Sphere
    or were they Fw 190A's from JG 1 with white spinners and white balkenkreuz ? what is the date of op ?
     
  13. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2003
    Messages:
    5,906
    Likes Received:
    853
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Electrical Engineer, Aircraft Restoration
    Location:
    Rancho Cucamonga, California, U.S.A.
    I've heard a few stories about this, too. But that's what they were ... stories from people who knew people who might have been there.

    I KNOW the Luiftwaffe had captured Allied planes and I KNOW they flew them. But I don't know the details other than they supposedly infiltrated raids at some time, with unknown results. I have heard several US planes were shot down this way, but have never seen anything substantiated by anything like a reliable source. I also heard they used captured US fighters to infiltrate landing patterns in the evening at some US bases. Again, nothing definite from a reliable source.

    I know the Allies had several captured German planes and maybe sometimes used Ju-52's to drop off agents or supplies, but the details are alwys strangely missing.

    Still, it would be nice to learn about these things if someone really knows ...
     
  14. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2010
    Messages:
    3,811
    Likes Received:
    181
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    it could be german pilots "counting coup"...just seeing if they could get away with it. stranger things have happened...
     
  15. Balljoint

    Balljoint Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2012
    Messages:
    325
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    Boulder, CO
    Then there’s the story of the phantom P-38 flown by Lt. Guido Rossi of the Axis forces that was discussed on an earlier thread. Good tale not entirely disproved but drags in the YB-40 and Guido’s wife such that it rings of a scriptwriter rather than reality.
     
  16. gjs238

    gjs238 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,710
    Likes Received:
    107
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    #16 gjs238, Jul 2, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2013
    Aircraft misidentification is a possibility.

    German aircraft factory defense units used prototypes.
    Perhaps Heinkel He 100/112?
     
  17. B-17engineer

    B-17engineer Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2007
    Messages:
    14,953
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    model builder
    Location:
    Revis Island.
    #17 B-17engineer, Jul 2, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2013
    April 10th, 1945 the report was filed doesnt give date of sightings of p51

    EDIT: OH the OP, ill check in the morning getting late here in England!
     
  18. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    20,140
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Washington State
    Did read about a Bf-109 that supposedly sidled up to a B-17 just aft of the tail. Supposedly no gun position could train on it. I have tried to imagine where such a position would be and am very dubious. I want to say I read this in the book "Gunner" by Donald Nijboer, but can't quite remember. As I recall this B-17 was tail end charlie after being damaged. The -109 moves into position (how that occurred without sighting is not explained), sits there for a few minutes visibly smoking a cigarrette and then suddenly peels off. The report was a first hand quote from a B-17 gunner.
     
  19. redcoat

    redcoat Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2004
    Messages:
    420
    Likes Received:
    30
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Occupation:
    lorry driver
    Location:
    Stockport
    The use of a captured B-24 or B-17 near to an Allied bomber formation would required all the Luftwaffe units in the area to have full information on the aircraft and what it was doing, in order to avoid a friendly fire incident. The fact that this seems never to have occurred leads me to think that these reported incidents are the results of mistaken identity on the part of the bombers reporting them
     
  20. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    24,075
    Likes Received:
    655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Korporate Kontrolleur
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Yea I agree, it almost seems like an urban myth
     
Loading...

Share This Page