German Battleships and convoy hunting.

[syscom3]

No. Carolina class vs Bismark, would be a draw, perhaps slight edge to Bismark, depending on how soon the US ship could begin firing. Close in fight would be advantage Bismark.

South Dakota class vs Bismark would be a slight edge to the S Dakota

Iowa class vs Bismark would clearly be the Iowa.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Heres my question for you syscom. You keep arguing about the Bismark's vitals being reached by shells. It is proven that no shell from the some 5000 shells that hit her penetrated her hull. Thats good protection to me.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Here is an interview with a surviving crewmember Bruno Rzonca of the Bismark. All of this is found at the Official website of the Bismark: http://www.kbismarck.com

Bruno Rzonca passed away on 23 July 2004


Interviewer: Were you looking at the Hood at the time she blew up? Did you see the Hood blow up with your own eyes?

Bruno: No, but I did get reports from those who did see the Hood go down with field glasses.

Bruno: Later on the same evening [the 24th] we had a torpedo fly attack. They dropped 19 torpedoes. We zig-zaged them all out except one. One hit us right under the starboard side, on the right side, a little bit below my station. I was sitting on a tool box and from the pressure I got up. Then we checked it out and alarm came from the boiler room; we had to shut it off because the fire came back out. But 10 minutes later we checked it out again and nothing happened, it was just from the air pressure. We had our first casualty. It was in the rank of a sergeant; he was standing there on the railing where the torpedo struck, and from the air pressure he was flung over to the other side on the railing and broke his neck.

Interviewer: How was the armour on the hull of the ship?

Bruno: The biggest part of the armour was 15 inches. No torpedo came through the whole day.

Interviewer: What kind of steel was that?

Bruno: I don't know.

Interviewer: Nickel-chromium steel?

Bruno: Yeah, something like that.

Interviewer: 15 inches?

Bruno: 15 inches on the thickest part. Over the machinery there were even two [decks?] of them, 8 inches. Not one shell came through the machinery.

And about the ship was scuttled:

Interviewer: What happened during the final battle?

Bruno: During the final battle I stayed at my station to the end. Then I heard the command to abandon ship on the intercom. We knew we had half an hour to get off the ship once that order was given as all internal doors were opened. They opened the bottom valves first in the boiler and turbine room and blew it up so the water came in.

Interviewer: Did you recognize the voice on the intercom?

Bruno: No.

Interviewer: Were you afraid?

Bruno: Very afraid. When the shooting started a big shell came right into me, on the left [port] side. I used to change shifts with my comrade Rudi Römer. I had just talked to him five minutes before and then he disappeared. I thought he died.

So, the last order came through, abandon ship and leave the doors open. When the skipper [Lindemann] gave the order to abandon the ship, we looked for an exit. I was looking around and saw men sitting on a bench and I asked: "don't you want to save yourselves?" they said: "There is no ship coming, the water is too cold, the waves too high, we are going down with the ship." A little bit further there was a wounded guy, he lost his heels I said: "come on I am going to help you out first and then find me an exit" he replied: "leave me alone and don't step on my feet, I going down with the ship." I couldn't believe that. A little later we found a stairway.

When I came out I couldn't believe it. The British were still shooting, and we looked for cover behind one of the 6-inch turrets. Bodies were piled around the turrets, they were all dead. The whole deck was full of blood and body parts. There were a couple of guys sitting there and said: "help me to get in the water, we can't walk anymore" so we help them out into the water. Now the ship started turning over more and more to the left [port] side and I stayed on the starboard side. I took off my heavy leather suit and jumped into the water. I thought this should be the end. I was only 23 years old starting living, I was engaged, and there was no chance to save myself. You just have to jump into the water and swim as long as you can. That's what I did. It was at least 50 or more feet to jump into the water. I was 100 feet away when the ship started to turn over to the left side all the way, and then a couple of guys that didn't went over on time, jumped and slided down the hull [starboard] side until they hit the stabilizer [bilge trace] and they never came out again. They drownned. Then, we had to swim for almost an hour, the water was 15º C. and the waves 30 feet high.

Interviewer: You know Bruno, a lot of people think the ship was sunk. Was it scuttled?

Bruno: Otherwise I wouldn't be alive. I was there to the last moment you know, and even so when I was swimming in the water, I was 100 feet away there was not a hole in the hull from all the torpedoes. They shot 71 torpedoes and 12 hits. Not one came through. Dorsetshire shot the torpedoes during the last part I was on the ship and I didn't notice these torpedoes.

Interviewer: How many guys were in the water?

Bruno: I would say about 1,000. Half the crew were already dead from the shooting.

To verify this in the documetaries by Robert Ballard and James Camerson they proved that not a single shot went through the hull of the Bismark.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i'll wager that still wont be enough for sys, was very interesting reading though...........

 

[Nonskimmer]

Indeed it was. Good link too.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

i'll wager that still wont be enough for sys, was very interesting reading though...........

Ofcourse not because in a Sim it happened differently.

 

[delcyros]

Sorry Glider, I mentioned Scharnhorst vs Glorious at 27.000 yrds as a fluke, not the battle against DoY.
Syscom, why do you think so? SD was inferior to Bismarck in terms of firepower, armor protection of her vitals, speed, underwater protection and up to 1943 (introduction of SK-2 Radar) also in firecontroll.

 

[syscom3]

i'll wager that still wont be enough for sys, was very interesting reading though...........

Ofcourse not because in a Sim it happened differently.

 

[syscom3]

From longer ranges, the shells would be coming in at higher angles, and thats where the weak link in the Bismarks armour is. From closer ranges, the flatter trajectory of the shells would be stopped by the main armour belt.

For the SD, Bismark was superior in speed. The US had the advantage of the longer range and higher angles the guns could fire at. The armour protection was superior at longer range and equal to the Bismark for the middle ranges. Im still reading in detail the armour protection for shorter ranges.

The US fire control was superior to the Bismark.

Attached is an interesting pix taken of the SD at the battle of the Santa Cruz islands. The Japanese plane had already dropped its torpedo (probably at the USS Hornet several miles away) and the SD was in its path on the way "out".

 

[Gnomey]

Good stuff Alder, interesting. I watched the Robert Ballard documentary (at some point) on the Bismark and it to was really interesting to see that no torpedoes had penetrated the hull. It was still disabled by an a biplane though...

 

[syscom3]

Getting hit in the rudder does tend to ruin a captains day, doesnt it.

 

[Glider]

Interesting point on the Heavy AA fire from the Bismark. People have often wondered why no Swordfish were lost in the attack on the Bismark which had the most modern AA guns available. I read about the following theory a few years ago and thought it a bit wild. However there was pro gramme on the sinking of the Bismark and a rep from the Imperial War Museum repeated it so here it is.

I am sure you are aware that one tactic with AA fire was to put a wall of shells up in front of the incoming aircraft , the idea being to hit the aircraft as it came through the curtain. In the Bismark the fusing system had three speeds which reduced the range at which the shells exploded, the idea being that the plane would spend longer in the exposed area whilst coming through the curtain of shells.

The slowest of the speed settings on the Bismark AA guns was equal to 100mph. However the Swordfish only went 80mph on an attack run with a torpedo. As a result the Heavy AA fire was retreating at a faster speed than the plane could go and the plane survived.

A case I think, of being too clever by half.

By the way, people have commented that the SD had better Fire Control. I should hope so seeing as it was sunk before the SD was in service. The big question would be would it be better than Bismark if the Bismark had been given the latest equipment in 1944.

 

[Erich]

of course not being there, glider brings up an interesting what if. had the bismark been able to mount late 1944 "Barbara" Aa fittings of the Prinz Eugen the Swordfish probably would of not been able to pull anything off.

like I said an interesting thought, the Prinz mounting some 18 4cm Bofors, 6 2cm Flakvierlings

 

[syscom3]

Considering that the Japanese Kamikazi's on occasion penetrated even more dense AA fire from a massed task force, its possible the Swordfish's could get through the Bismarks AA.

Ive also heard the same thing about the Bismarks fire control not being able to handle slow moving airplanes.

To compare FC radars in 1944, then the Allies are still in the lead.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

and the swordfish were often flying lower than the depression of the AA guns would allow.........

 

[Erich]

again not being there but can tell you that Soviet a/c tried to attack at below deck level agaisnt the Prinz and associated Z's as well as the Admiral Hipper with disasterous results. The 4cm bofors could elevate from flat out to vertical as well as the 2cm twin and four barrel flakveirlings. the Kriegsmarine had learned their lessons early in the war. Again this is all what if

 

[trackend]

My only take on things is that by 1939 the day of the battleship had come and was rapidly going, by 1945 they had all been relegated to the role of shore bombardment platforms.
The Bismark Tirpitz where superb vessels but not very successful their fate was inevitable even before they had left the slipway.
The German surface raider was always going to be on to a looser that's why Donitz concentrated on the U boat. Cheap quick to build compared to the highly technical battleships and as 99% of Germany's raw materials did not go by sea their was no need to defend a huge mechantial fleet (just attack one) The Carrier was and is the most powerful conventionally armed vessel ever to put to sea and its coming of age was during WW2 just as was the demise of the big gun ship.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

but is there anything that will replace the carrier?

 

[Nonskimmer]

The star destroyer?

 

[syscom3]

In low intensity conflicts, do we need a carrier battle group?