German night intruder missions vs American air bases in England

[davebender]

Nice maps!

Looks like U.S. 8th Air Force got the best deal. Their airfields were nearest to Europe and also nearest to London where off duty air crew could unwind.

 

[Airframes]

It's also the flattest, and most open area of Britain - saves taking off or landing up or down hill!

 

[Erich]

and easiest to spot by the LW .......

 

[davebender]

By the time 8th Air Force arrived that hardly mattered. The Luftwaffe couldn't send several hundred bombers over England as long as most aircraft were occupied fighting the Soviet Union.

 

[Erich]

I'm going back to 41-42 the 8th was not an effective force to be dealt with till mid 43 and afterward, you didn't need bombers when NJG 2 was scaring the BC units pants off early war, my intentions were to arm all NJG's with the Ju 88C's and let go but with the apparent non-reasoning by the short ugly Austrian it never materialized

 

[davebender]

Airfields were still being constructed at that time. Why not bomb the construction sites at night using He-111s?

 

[Erich]

it should of been en-masse from the start Dave with all available bombers/night fighters // twin engines with fuel tanks underwing. even early ar the LW knew where the Allied fields were and what was being built.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Airfields were still being constructed at that time. Why not bomb the construction sites at night using He-111s?

Because bombing a partially completed airfield, with all the equipment needed to build an airfield in the general vicinity, is not going to achieve much?

 

[Crimea_River]

Ahhhh, hindsight is such a wonderful tool......

 

[davebender]

Because bombing a partially completed airfield, with all the equipment needed to build an airfield in the general vicinity, is not going to achieve much?

I disagree.

Airfields are generally open space making it difficult to hide equipment. Me-110C6 (with 3cm Mk101 cannon) would be ideal for shooting up dozers, dump trucks, compactors, front end loaders etc.

There's probably a cement plant on site. Bomb it to dust.

Complete the attack by seeding the construction site with cluster munitions.

 

[Shortround6]

Somehow we went from night intruders to shooting up bulldozers???

Seeding with cluster munitions?

What type?

Germans had a tough time finding London at night, even flying up the Thames. Finding a partially completed airfield in the boonies, at night and picking out individual bulldozers and trucks is no problem though????

 

[wiking85]

Why not have the Baedecker Raids be instead against airfields instead of cities?

 

[davebender]

German aircraft used radio navigation aids when operating over England during WWI. By 1939 they had improved radio navigation aids. Why can't they find their war around Britain in the dark?

 

[tyrodtom]

The Luftwaffe used different systems for radio navigation during the night Blitz, but in each case the British developed various countermeasures and neutralized them.

 

[Balljoint]

I think what we're talking about here is Kammhuber's NJG2 which was a group in the night-fighter division. This was a rather effective effort despite flying repurposed aircraft. However in Oct 1941the plug was pulled by –surprise- Hitler. As with much of the LW there were too many leaks and not enough plugs. The aircraft were needed more urgently in Sicily and N Africa. This was reinforced by a belief that destroying night returning bombers was a waste of resources, let along going to England to engage them.

When Kammhuber submitted an accurate projection of the resources required to effectively defend against the RAF night campaign the entire effort was cut back and restricted to defending against the RAF area bombing.

 

[wiking85]

Not as well as the British claim.
The First Pathfinders - The Operational History of Kampfgruppe 100,1939 - 41: Kenneth Wakefield: 9780947554200: Amazon.com: Books
Pfadfinder: Luftwaffe Pathfinder Operations over Britain,1940-1944: Ken Wakefield: 9780752416922: Amazon.com: Books

The Luftwaffe was using X-Verfahren successfully up until the Blitz was called off in May 1941. Yes, the British were able to thwart some bombers some of the time and shut down Y-Verfahren eventually, but not before it was successfully used on multiple occasions into 1941. This is different than what wikipedia and R.V. Jones claim, but German pathfinders were successfully able to use these aids into 1941. The times they were able to shut out German navigation totally was by blanket jamming of all frequencies, which also blocked their night fighters from getting directions from their ground radars, which greatly complicated their job, as part of the ability of use their AI radar was to get directed to a bomber stream or group by the ground controllers to use their short range onboard radar. That neutralizes their ability to intercept, but hopefully prevents the bombers from finding their targets, an iffy proposition, as the Luftwaffe was still hitting Liverpool in May 1941 even though the Brits claim they had shut down German navigation over Britain.

Not only that, but the Germans continued development of their navigation aids past 1941, so they had new methods by 1942-3 that enabled them to hit targets during the Baedecker raids. Like OBOE, EGON, the German version, was usable by only a few aircraft at a time, but then allowed small groups of intruders to mark a target and let follow on raiders plaster it. Remember than IOTL the vast majority of night bombers Allied and Axis did not have radio navigation equipment and relied on general navigation and pathfinders marking the target to find and hit it.

 

[Erich]

NJG 2 was not officially run by Kammhuber he was directional chef of the entire Nachtjagd arm. NJG 2 became the prime Intruder night fighter unit of the LW. no BC did not block all LW radio and radar navigational systems and vice versa.

 

[davebender]

British counter measures were largely ineffective. Otherwise Luftwaffe bombing raids against seaports such as Liverpool and London wouldn't have been so effective.

 

[Airframes]

B*ll*cks! Read and research the full history behind the 'Battle of the Beams' - perhaps then you'll discover why, and for what reasons, many Luftwaffe night raids got through.

 

[pinsog]

I disagree.

Airfields are generally open space making it difficult to hide equipment. Me-110C6 (with 3cm Mk101 cannon) would be ideal for shooting up dozers, dump trucks, compactors, front end loaders etc.

There's probably a cement plant on site. Bomb it to dust.

Complete the attack by seeding the construction site with cluster munitions.

Seems to me that would have worked once, then the next time they try it the airfield has a bunch of 40mm Bofors and M16 halftracks (the quad 50 halftracks) and a bunch of German nightfighters would become lawn decorations.