German night intruder missions vs American air bases in England

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by kettbo, Sep 30, 2012.

  1. kettbo

    kettbo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2007
    Messages:
    435
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    US Army (Ret)
    Location:
    Western Washington, USA
    Maybe I have missed the boat here...

    Makes sense that the Germans should have/could have sent some bombers at night against the major American bomber bases up through the end of 1944.
    I know some of the British cities got bombed that late, what about air fields? Certainly a load of HE/FRAG and Incendiaries would play havoc, not to mention clearing un-exploded ordnance. Even a few FW190G dropping those cans of cluster-bomb type weapons could be nasty...and throw whole time-tables off for the morning heavy bomber raids.

    Certainly the US and the UK defended against this sort of activity
    Any successes for the Germans here?
    Any shoot-down over air bases? We certainly had German night fighters LANDING at Allied bases
     
  2. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Chicagoland Area
    #2 wiking85, Sep 30, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2012
    Axis History Forum • View topic - Intruder Operations Over England
    This thread has a lot of information about that. British night defenses were built up from 1940 after the trauma of the Blitz, so German intruders got slaughtered by 1944. In 1941-2 they were pretty effective enough at a relatively high casualty rate.

    Nachtjagdgeschwader 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    FalkeEins - the Luftwaffe blog: book review - Das Flurschaden-Geschwader Die Chronik des Kampfgeschwaders KG 51 Edelweiß
    http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/me-210c-vs-me-410a-21168-2.html

    Here is the best thread I could find on this website about this topic.
    http://www.ww2f.com/what-if-europea...1856-intruder-ops-luftwaffe-after-1941-a.html
     
  3. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,321
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Chicagoland Area
    #3 wiking85, Sep 30, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2012
    Axis History Forum • View topic - Intruder Operations Over England
    This thread has a lot of information about that. British night defenses were built up from 1940 after the trauma of the Blitz, so German intruders got slaughtered by 1944. In 1941-2 they were pretty effective enough at a relatively high casualty rate.

    Nachtjagdgeschwader 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    FalkeEins - the Luftwaffe blog: book review - Das Flurschaden-Geschwader Die Chronik des Kampfgeschwaders KG 51 Edelweiß
    http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/me-210c-vs-me-410a-21168-2.html

    Here is the best thread I could find on this website about this topic.
    http://www.ww2f.com/what-if-europea...1856-intruder-ops-luftwaffe-after-1941-a.html
     
  4. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    13,090
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Platonic Sphere
    note I was the one that added to the links provided, KG 51 d 54 were quite effective but it was alsways the same, the calls back even the LW NF force was active in 1945 but never enough fuels or numbers to plaster BC or US airfields to nothingness. it all should of been kept alive from 1941 onward with increased numbers of LW t/e AIrCRAFT TO DO THE JOB AND LONG RANGE FUEL TANKS TO LOITER JUST WAITING FOR LANDING aLLIED BOMBERS TO APPEAR
     
  5. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    25,205
    Likes Received:
    966
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary
    Also, check this out this great book.

    $(KGrHqZ,!l!E65KGG46tBO)f1!M1Fg~~60_12.JPG
     
  6. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    If Germany is going to conduct intruder operations it should be early in the war (1939 to 1942) with the objective of disrupting airfield construction. Just as RAF Bomber Command should have attacked German submarine pens as they were being constructed rather then waiting until these bomb proof installations were operational.

    Bombing England after 1942 is just a good way to fritter away Luftwaffe aircraft and experienced aircrew.
     
  7. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    24,093
    Likes Received:
    657
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Korporate Kontrolleur
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Thanks Andy, you just enabled me!
     
  8. kettbo

    kettbo Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2007
    Messages:
    435
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    US Army (Ret)
    Location:
    Western Washington, USA
    #8 kettbo, Oct 1, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2012
    IF you pose a credible threat, then it must be defended against
    Occasional attacks would tie down planes to defend the US and UK bases, heads would roll!
    Some diversions then sneak the strike package in. Will have to read all the good links and try to find that book cited. Thanks people!

    I am familiar with the early Intruder missions. Should have been more clear for 1943 and 44. Wow! Even raids in 1945!
     
  9. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2008
    Messages:
    25,205
    Likes Received:
    966
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Calgary
    Book is still available at Amazon and EBay.
     
  10. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    13,090
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Platonic Sphere
    a pure what if naturally and we have eluded to this several times on this forum but what if the NJG's would of had the mind-set to increase twin engine numbers and continued the intruder missions over English air bases then what of the Allies .............. ?
     
  11. bobbysocks

    bobbysocks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2010
    Messages:
    3,811
    Likes Received:
    181
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    #11 bobbysocks, Oct 1, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2012
    i would say then the allies would have to significantly step up their night fighter intercept forces. radar might give them the edge in locating raiding ac as it helped during the BoB...
    i would say the LW would have had better success loitering around and attacking before take off. may times this was done just at or slightly before sunrise. all those bombers with full loads of fuel and bombs all lines up out of their revetments.... the down side is your night fighters would be flying home in the early morning hours.
     
  12. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Nightly intruder missions by a handful of Luftwaffe aircraft will tie down almost as many British defensive resources as large attacks. IMO that's what Germany should be doing after 1942. And don't always attack heavy bomber airfields. Shooting down student pilots flying unarmed trainer aircraft will make RAF pilot training more difficult and costly.
     
  13. tyrodtom

    tyrodtom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    110
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    auto body repair
    Location:
    pound va
    They'd have a long way to go, about half of the RAF's pilots were trained elsewhere ( USA, Canada, Austrailia, etc.) and most of the training bases in Britain were far from the operational bomber and fighter bases. Plus there aren't a lot of student pilots flying around after dark.
     
  14. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    That cannot be true as RAF Bomber Command normally operated at night.
     
  15. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    13,090
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Platonic Sphere
    If Hitler would not have had the final word then ............... one can only imagine if the war in Europe really would of been over the English isle, the bases in all respects would of been plastered to nothing.
     
  16. tyrodtom

    tyrodtom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    110
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    auto body repair
    Location:
    pound va
    A for example is one pilots transition training to the Halifax, 26 hours daytime, 18 night. Mostly cross country, and far from Bomber Commands airfields on the east coast.
     
  17. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    What difference does that make? German intruder aircraft can reach any point in England and Scotland from airfields in Norway and France.
     
  18. tyrodtom

    tyrodtom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    110
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    auto body repair
    Location:
    pound va
    Could they now?
    A intruders usual method of operation was to follow returning aircraft back to their fields. Flying all the way from Norway or France to a particular airfield in Britain at night would be a navigational problem of a whole different magnitute, not impossible, but just how often was that done.
     
  19. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    \
    So is flying from an airfield in England to a city in Germany. That's why WWII aircraft operating at night carry (or should carry) a navigator in the back seat when flying over enemy territory.
     
  20. Milosh

    Milosh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2009
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    96
    Trophy Points:
    48
Loading...

Share This Page