German night intruder missions vs American air bases in England

[kettbo]

Maybe I have missed the boat here...

Makes sense that the Germans should have/could have sent some bombers at night against the major American bomber bases up through the end of 1944.
I know some of the British cities got bombed that late, what about air fields? Certainly a load of HE/FRAG and Incendiaries would play havoc, not to mention clearing un-exploded ordnance. Even a few FW190G dropping those cans of cluster-bomb type weapons could be nasty...and throw whole time-tables off for the morning heavy bomber raids.

Certainly the US and the UK defended against this sort of activity
Any successes for the Germans here?
Any shoot-down over air bases? We certainly had German night fighters LANDING at Allied bases

 

[wiking85]

Axis History Forum • View topic - Intruder Operations Over England
This thread has a lot of information about that. British night defenses were built up from 1940 after the trauma of the Blitz, so German intruders got slaughtered by 1944. In 1941-2 they were pretty effective enough at a relatively high casualty rate.

Nachtjagdgeschwader 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Intruders 1940-41

I./NJG 2's initial role was unlike the other units of the Luftwaffe night fighter arm; as a Fernnachtjagd Gruppe they were tasked with long-range intruder missions over the UK, disrupting night flying training and harassing the returning Royal Air Force (RAF) bombers over their own airfields.
Luftflotte 3's radio intercepts of Bomber Command's transmissions helped pinpoint the operational airfields in Eastern England. I./NJG 2 aircraft could then scramble to be over the airfields at the predicted times of the bomber's return.
The technique employed was to mix with the returning bombers, orbit the bases, and either shoot down targets that presented themselves or drop 50 kilograms (110 lb) bombs across the runways.[1]
Based at Gilze-Rijen in Holland, operations commenced using just 7 JU 88 C-1 night fighters. Although most missions were carried out using the Junkers Ju 88C-1 and C-2, a few Dornier Do 215B-5 fighter conversions were trialled in the spring of 1941.
The offensive over the UK yielded promising results- some 143 victory claims were made, and over 90 RAF aircraft were indeed lost between October 1940 and the start of 1942. There was also the additional disruption to RAF operations and the psychological effects on the RAF crews.[1]
By October 1941 however night intruder sorties were curtailed, due to the inadequate number of aircraft available (I Gruppe never had more than 20 JU 88s operational) and the High Command's perceived lack of results; it was thought shooting down RAF bombers over the German homeland had a far greater morale effect than over the UK.[1]
Among the most successful of the unit's pilots was Ufz. Heinz Strüning, who flew 66 intruder missions over England. He recorded his first night victory on 23/24 November - a RAF Vickers Wellington bomber and by the end of 1941 he had 9 victories. Leutnant Alfons Koster had, by October 1941, some 11 intruder victories. Lt. Hans Hahn was credited with 12 victories, all over the British Isles. He was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross In July 1941, but was killed in action in October 1941, colliding with an RAF Airspeed Oxford trainer he was trying to shoot down.
II./NJG 2 flew more conventional operations at this time, based at Leeuwarden on the Dutch coast.
[edit]

FalkeEins - the Luftwaffe blog: book review - Das Flurschaden-Geschwader Die Chronik des Kampfgeschwaders KG 51 Edelweiß

The first part of the work is entitled "The unequal fight in the West" and describes Me 410 long-range night intruder missions carried out by I. and II./KG 51 between February 1944 and August 1944

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/me-210c-vs-me-410a-21168-2.html

Here is the best thread I could find on this website about this topic.
http://www.ww2f.com/what-if-europea...1856-intruder-ops-luftwaffe-after-1941-a.html

 

[wiking85]

Axis History Forum • View topic - Intruder Operations Over England
This thread has a lot of information about that. British night defenses were built up from 1940 after the trauma of the Blitz, so German intruders got slaughtered by 1944. In 1941-2 they were pretty effective enough at a relatively high casualty rate.

Nachtjagdgeschwader 2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Intruders 1940-41

I./NJG 2's initial role was unlike the other units of the Luftwaffe night fighter arm; as a Fernnachtjagd Gruppe they were tasked with long-range intruder missions over the UK, disrupting night flying training and harassing the returning Royal Air Force (RAF) bombers over their own airfields.
Luftflotte 3's radio intercepts of Bomber Command's transmissions helped pinpoint the operational airfields in Eastern England. I./NJG 2 aircraft could then scramble to be over the airfields at the predicted times of the bomber's return.
The technique employed was to mix with the returning bombers, orbit the bases, and either shoot down targets that presented themselves or drop 50 kilograms (110 lb) bombs across the runways.[1]
Based at Gilze-Rijen in Holland, operations commenced using just 7 JU 88 C-1 night fighters. Although most missions were carried out using the Junkers Ju 88C-1 and C-2, a few Dornier Do 215B-5 fighter conversions were trialled in the spring of 1941.
The offensive over the UK yielded promising results- some 143 victory claims were made, and over 90 RAF aircraft were indeed lost between October 1940 and the start of 1942. There was also the additional disruption to RAF operations and the psychological effects on the RAF crews.[1]
By October 1941 however night intruder sorties were curtailed, due to the inadequate number of aircraft available (I Gruppe never had more than 20 JU 88s operational) and the High Command's perceived lack of results; it was thought shooting down RAF bombers over the German homeland had a far greater morale effect than over the UK.[1]
Among the most successful of the unit's pilots was Ufz. Heinz Strüning, who flew 66 intruder missions over England. He recorded his first night victory on 23/24 November - a RAF Vickers Wellington bomber and by the end of 1941 he had 9 victories. Leutnant Alfons Koster had, by October 1941, some 11 intruder victories. Lt. Hans Hahn was credited with 12 victories, all over the British Isles. He was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross In July 1941, but was killed in action in October 1941, colliding with an RAF Airspeed Oxford trainer he was trying to shoot down.
II./NJG 2 flew more conventional operations at this time, based at Leeuwarden on the Dutch coast.
[edit]

FalkeEins - the Luftwaffe blog: book review - Das Flurschaden-Geschwader Die Chronik des Kampfgeschwaders KG 51 Edelweiß

The first part of the work is entitled "The unequal fight in the West" and describes Me 410 long-range night intruder missions carried out by I. and II./KG 51 between February 1944 and August 1944

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/me-210c-vs-me-410a-21168-2.html

Here is the best thread I could find on this website about this topic.
http://www.ww2f.com/what-if-europea...1856-intruder-ops-luftwaffe-after-1941-a.html

 

[Erich]

note I was the one that added to the links provided, KG 51 d 54 were quite effective but it was alsways the same, the calls back even the LW NF force was active in 1945 but never enough fuels or numbers to plaster BC or US airfields to nothingness. it all should of been kept alive from 1941 onward with increased numbers of LW t/e AIrCRAFT TO DO THE JOB AND LONG RANGE FUEL TANKS TO LOITER JUST WAITING FOR LANDING aLLIED BOMBERS TO APPEAR

 

[Crimea_River]

Also, check this out this great book.

 

[davebender]

If Germany is going to conduct intruder operations it should be early in the war (1939 to 1942) with the objective of disrupting airfield construction. Just as RAF Bomber Command should have attacked German submarine pens as they were being constructed rather then waiting until these bomb proof installations were operational.

Bombing England after 1942 is just a good way to fritter away Luftwaffe aircraft and experienced aircrew.

 

[vikingBerserker]

Also, check this out this great book.

View attachment 212505

Thanks Andy, you just enabled me!

 

[kettbo]

IF you pose a credible threat, then it must be defended against
Occasional attacks would tie down planes to defend the US and UK bases, heads would roll!
Some diversions then sneak the strike package in. Will have to read all the good links and try to find that book cited. Thanks people!

I am familiar with the early Intruder missions. Should have been more clear for 1943 and 44. Wow! Even raids in 1945!

 

[Crimea_River]

Book is still available at Amazon and EBay.

 

[Erich]

a pure what if naturally and we have eluded to this several times on this forum but what if the NJG's would of had the mind-set to increase twin engine numbers and continued the intruder missions over English air bases then what of the Allies .............. ?

 

[bobbysocks]

i would say then the allies would have to significantly step up their night fighter intercept forces. radar might give them the edge in locating raiding ac as it helped during the BoB...
i would say the LW would have had better success loitering around and attacking before take off. may times this was done just at or slightly before sunrise. all those bombers with full loads of fuel and bombs all lines up out of their revetments.... the down side is your night fighters would be flying home in the early morning hours.

 

[davebender]

Nightly intruder missions by a handful of Luftwaffe aircraft will tie down almost as many British defensive resources as large attacks. IMO that's what Germany should be doing after 1942. And don't always attack heavy bomber airfields. Shooting down student pilots flying unarmed trainer aircraft will make RAF pilot training more difficult and costly.

 

[tyrodtom]

Nightly intruder missions by a handful of Luftwaffe aircraft will tie down almost as many British defensive resources as large attacks. IMO that's what Germany should be doing after 1942. And don't always attack heavy bomber airfields. Shooting down student pilots flying unarmed trainer aircraft will make RAF pilot training more difficult and costly.

They'd have a long way to go, about half of the RAF's pilots were trained elsewhere ( USA, Canada, Austrailia, etc.) and most of the training bases in Britain were far from the operational bomber and fighter bases. Plus there aren't a lot of student pilots flying around after dark.

 

[davebender]

That cannot be true as RAF Bomber Command normally operated at night.

 

[Erich]

If Hitler would not have had the final word then ............... one can only imagine if the war in Europe really would of been over the English isle, the bases in all respects would of been plastered to nothing.

 

[tyrodtom]

That cannot be true as RAF Bomber Command normally operated at night.

A for example is one pilots transition training to the Halifax, 26 hours daytime, 18 night. Mostly cross country, and far from Bomber Commands airfields on the east coast.

 

[davebender]

What difference does that make? German intruder aircraft can reach any point in England and Scotland from airfields in Norway and France.

 

[tyrodtom]

What difference does that make? German intruder aircraft can reach any point in England and Scotland from airfields in Norway and France.

Could they now?
A intruders usual method of operation was to follow returning aircraft back to their fields. Flying all the way from Norway or France to a particular airfield in Britain at night would be a navigational problem of a whole different magnitute, not impossible, but just how often was that done.

 

[davebender]

Flying all the way from Norway or France to a particular airfield in Britain at night would be a navigational problem of a whole different magnitute,

\
So is flying from an airfield in England to a city in Germany. That's why WWII aircraft operating at night carry (or should carry) a navigator in the back seat when flying over enemy territory.

 

[Milosh]

Bomber Command airfields

Bomber Command Stations WW2 UK Sites

8th AF airfields

The USAF 8th Air Force Airfields In Great Britain