Gold-Clash

lesofprimus · May 22, 2005

I just read the entire section on the Bf-109 Gustav in the Encyclopedia of Aircraft of WWII, and nowhere does it mention the G-10 as being the best anything.....

However, the Dora 9 is regarded in all the publications i have as the Best Fighter the Luftwaffe ever produced in #'s.......

If in a 'tough spot', the D-9 always had one VERY reliable escape maneuver, Split S's, as nothing could follow a D-9's Split S maneuver.

NOTHING..........

And as the speed increases to 400mph, the D-9 quickly becomes THE hottest fighter to hit the air in WW2.

At what altitude???? The -152H???? Hhhhmmmmm......

plan_D · May 22, 2005

Combat doesn't stay 400 mph very long though.

Erich · May 22, 2005

Les try Priens, Bf 109 series-variants. or the OOP MOnogram pubs on the 109G and the Dora fighters....

the G10 was the fastest of the G variants and in fact the fastest of the 109's. think about why the Anti Mossie units got rid of the Fw 190's and went over to the G-6/AS and G-10's. Speed at high altitude, and I am not talking about low to medium Soren, this is the reason why I gave the stats on the units flying the Dora and the G-10. principly it was thus in 1945. any unit that had the Fw 190A-8 and A-9 got dibs on the Dora. any unit that still had G-14/AS on hand at least 3/4's strength received the G-10 and later the K-4 in some quantities which were not many. this was usually at the gruppe strength. Here are a couple of examples: JG 4 had G-10's and then Doras in the Geschwader stab along with Fw 190A-9's in the stabstaffel and in II./JG 4 a long standing SturmFw gruppe. it consisted of A-9's.

JG 1 though had both G-10/G-14's as well as Fw 190A-8/A-9's and then a sprinkling of the horrid He 162's in the I./gruppe

JG 3 had Fw 190A-9's in the old sturmgruppe IV. the I, II, and the III. gruppen had G-10 and G-14/AS, but ah wait two staffeln in the spring of 1945 in the old SturmFw IV. gruppe were equipped with the Dora and friend and ace Oskar Romm scored some victories with his agasint Soviet fighters at mid altitude.

JG 51 along with it's mix of 109G's had Fw 190A-9's and some Doras fighting off soviet fighter bombers, and fighters on the Ost front.

point is that everyone has a consensus and the Dora and G-10 never did fulfill it's promise of being the all out save the homeland fighter. there were just too much Allied/Soviet a/c to contend with. Suppose we could rack our brains silly trying to interview every living veteran that flew one or the other to get their personal opinion and we will never be satisfied. Both a/c flew against P-51 types with some success but also overall a huge failure to keep the skies clean over Germany

crapo I am rambling........

lesofprimus · May 22, 2005

Both a/c flew against P-51 types with some success but also overall a huge failure to keep the skies clean over Germany

100% Agreed erich..... Sheer #'s will usually overcome performance...
For the attack on Mossies, i would also want the fastest thing flying under my ass...... But if im gonna mix it up with Spits and Stangs from 18-30K, i wanna be in the Dora......

Too bad Tank had such problems getting the engine he wanted for his dream....... It took 2 years from prototype flight to actual service.......

Soren · May 22, 2005

I just read the entire section on the Bf-109 Gustav in the Encyclopedia of Aircraft of WWII, and nowhere does it mention the G-10 as being the best anything.....

There is a reason for that though. The 109 has been very 'miss-presented' by western writers/historians, and has never gotten the full credit it deserves. The Bf-109 was in truth one of the best fighters of WW2, even to the very end.

If in a 'tough spot', the D-9 always had one VERY reliable escape maneuver, Split S's, as nothing could follow a D-9's Split S maneuver.

Click to expand...

NOTHING..........

No other fighter, no.

And as the speed increases to 400mph, the D-9 quickly becomes THE hottest fighter to hit the air in WW2.

Click to expand...

At what altitude???? The -152H???? Hhhhmmmmm......

Any altitude. (Sufficient altitude is needed though, for keeping the speed up)

Combat doesn't stay 400 mph very long though.

In a Split S maneuver it does though.

lesofprimus · May 22, 2005

The 109 has been very 'miss-presented' by western writers/historians

In certain publications, yes... But in alot of the stuff I have and have read, the -109 is claimed as one of the most valuable items of WWII.... I dont think ive really seen it mis-represented...

The Bf-109 was in truth one of the best fighters of WW2, even to the very end.

I agree 100%....

Quote:
Quote:

And as the speed increases to 400mph, the D-9 quickly becomes THE hottest fighter to hit the air in WW2.

At what altitude???? The -152H???? Hhhhmmmmm......

Any altitude. (Sufficient altitude is needed though, for keeping the speed up)

I think the -152H was a match for the Dora in conditions over 28k........

Quote:
Combat doesn't stay 400 mph very long though.

In a Split S maneuver it does though.

100% agreed........

plan_D · May 22, 2005

Your original comment was saying that at 400 mph the D-9 was the hottest fighter of the war.

I merely state that while that is true, combat doesn't stay at 400 mph for long.

lesofprimus · May 22, 2005

I merely state that while that is true, combat doesn't stay at 400 mph for long.

I agree except in a Split S combat situation....

Soren · May 22, 2005

plan_D said:
Your original comment was saying that at 400 mph the D-9 was the hottest fighter of the war.

I merely state that while that is true, combat doesn't stay at 400 mph for long.

I was talking while in Split S maneuvers, a reverse Cuban maneuver would just do aswell. Bottom line is, the D-9 should stay above 400mph, and not get below 380mph. Above 400mph the D-9 is THE hottest fighter of WW2.

But in alot of the stuff I have and have read, the -109 is claimed as one of the most valuable items of WWII.... I dont think ive really seen it mis-represented...

Most BoB sites and most Spit sites for that matter represent it as virtually "Garbage", as do some western books about it. There are some good books about it out there though, but its few at the moment as its mostly newly published books.

I think the -152H was a match for the Dora in conditions over 28k.....

The TA-152H was better than the D-9 above 28k, no doubt about it. But the TA-152 wouldnt follow a D-9's Split S or Reversed Cuban maneuvers, it would outturn and outdive the D-9 though, 'and' outrun it.

lesofprimus · May 22, 2005

Most BoB sites and most Spit sites for that matter represent it as virtually "Garbage",

Which is why i consider myself smarter than the average meatball, and always look at both "Sides" of the coin...

plan_D · May 22, 2005

All I'm saying is; it's all well and good saying the D-9 was the best over 400 mph but combat doesn't stay at 400 mph! The pilot SHOULD keep it over 400 but he won't.

We could bring this back to your Zero Vs. Spitfire argument that eventually the fight would slow down. So, a Spitfire and Zero dogfight would slow down but a D-9 and Spitfire fight wouldn't? Honest question.

lesofprimus · May 23, 2005

but combat doesn't stay at 400 mph! The pilot SHOULD keep it over 400 but he won't.

I will agree to an extent... Alot of times it wont stay over 400 mph cause the poor, unlucky bastard flying the LaGG-3 got blasted outta the sky....

the lancaster kicks ass · May 23, 2005

Soren said:
plan_D said:

Your original comment was saying that at 400 mph the D-9 was the hottest fighter of the war.

I merely state that while that is true, combat doesn't stay at 400 mph for long.

Click to expand...

I was talking while in Split S maneuvers, a reverse Cuban maneuver would just do aswell. Bottom line is, the D-9 should stay above 400mph, and not get below 380mph. Above 400mph the D-9 is THE hottest fighter of WW2.

so you're suggesting that for the entire dogfight the D-9 simply does split Ss or reverse cubans?? and that's gonna get the spit shot down?? eventually the D-9'll have to do something else, and eventually the speed'll come down, and they wouldn't stay at full speed for long anyway, i can think or more appealing situations than being out of fuel or having a overheated engine..........

Soren · May 23, 2005

All I'm saying is; it's all well and good saying the D-9 was the best over 400 mph but combat doesn't stay at 400 mph! The pilot SHOULD keep it over 400 but he won't.

A good pilot will, and a regular would atleast keep it above 380mph. And if the Spit ever gets on the D-9's tail, it will just do a Split S or Cuban/Reverse-Cuban maneuver and its off its tail with garantee ! And if it combines these three maneuvers, it will be on the Spits tail in a very short space of time.

We could bring this back to your Zero Vs. Spitfire argument that eventually the fight would slow down. So, a Spitfire and Zero dogfight would slow down but a D-9 and Spitfire fight wouldn't? Honest question.

That was if the Spit decided to TURN WITH the Zero.

so you're suggesting that for the entire dogfight the D-9 simply does split Ss or reverse cubans?? and that's gonna get the spit shot down?? eventually the D-9'll have to do something else, and eventually the speed'll come down, and they wouldn't stay at full speed for long anyway, i can think or more appealing situations than being out of fuel or having a overheated engine..........

Yes the D-9 would eventually have to do another maneuver, and it will do so when its at its most maneuverable speed.

Lets say the Spit gets on the D-9's tail, the D-9 sees the Spit and so makes a Split S, the Spit tries to follow the D-9's extreem rolls in this maneuver but cant keep up (meanwhile the speed continues to increase QUICKLY). As the Spit can't follow the D-9's wild maneuvers it loses sight of the D-9, wich now is at its most maneuverable stage, and has taken advantage of this. So now while the Spit desperately tries to recover from the dive, the D-9 makes one Cuban and one Reverse Cuban maneuver, and is now on the Spits tail.

Now I don't have to tell you what the spit will do with the D-9 on its tail now do I ?

Its basically a draw.

plan_D · May 23, 2005

Dogfights took place more often below 400 mph than they did above.

Sure, they'll be those pilots who will be able to keep their plane above 400 mph but the majority won't. Also, keeping your engine at full power you're going to start over-heating, as lanc said.

The Spitfire pilot doesn't have to follow. The speed will drop, the D-9 isn't going to be able to hold up all day. Especially if he's repeating the same move time and time again, the Spitfire pilot will learn and adjust accordingly.

Soren · May 23, 2005

plan_D said:
The Spitfire pilot doesn't have to follow. The speed will drop, the D-9 isn't going to be able to hold up all day. Especially if he's repeating the same move time and time again, the Spitfire pilot will learn and adjust accordingly.

And the exact same goes for the D-9

The only thing the Spit can do is to run in circles, wich is pretty predictable and easy to adjust to.

FLYBOYJ · May 23, 2005

FUEL FOR THE FIRE:

1) I don't believe the Dora will sustain maneuvering speed above 400 mph if our Spit starts turning (mainly in the horizontal) and the Dora starts following it. I think you're over-estimating how rapidly a Dora will not loose airspeed in a high speed turn. Unless the Dora is going to keep its airspeed up and use its airspeed to "dive and climb" into the attack, its going to find itself under 400mph pretty quickly once maneuvering starts, even at high power settings. I think a split-s is the Dora's best maneuver above 400 mph.

2) Engine overheating will not be a problem IF the pilot enriches fuel mixture as required, the ambient air temperature is low (winter is GOOD), the engine is not detonating and the engne is not being overboosted, easier said than done especially in combat and especially with lower time pilots.

I do believe the Dora was one of the best, if not the best single engine fighter produced during WW2, and as Les brought up earlier, if Tank had his engine 2 years earlier, things over Europe might of wound up very different!

Soren · May 24, 2005

FLYBOYJ said:
FUEL FOR THE FIRE:

1) I don't believe the Dora will sustain maneuvering speed above 400 mph if our Spit starts turning (mainly in the horizontal) and the Dora starts following it. I think you're over-estimating how rapidly a Dora will not loose airspeed in a high speed turn. Unless the Dora is going to keep its airspeed up and use its airspeed to "dive and climb" into the attack, its going to find itself under 400mph pretty quickly once maneuvering starts, even at high power settings. I think a split-s is the Dora's best maneuver above 400 mph.

Hold on ! I wasnt saying the D-9 should keep following a Spit in a turn, no what I said (Also), was that it should try and follow only until speed drops below 400 or 380mph at least. If the Fight starts at 420mph, the D-9 is almost guaranteed finishing off the Spit before the speed drops to 380mph.

Bottom line is the D-9 should only follow a Spit's turn if its speed is at or above 400mph, below that it wont have enough time to finish off the Spit and will have to brake of the attack to soon.

But if directly behind the Spit, the speed suddenly doesnt matter no more, as the D-9's initial turn rate is MUCH faster than the Spits, and that will be enough to finish off the Spit if its tries to turn in this situation.

So the D-9's goal for a almost sure victory over the Spit, is to get close and behind the Spit, wich it will be able to do with a combination of three very effective maneuvers.

And the Spits goal is to not let the above happen, wich I would suggest requires alot of climbing, as turning is too predictable. If you start turning all the D-9 has to do then is to make one right guess on wich direction you will turn and your pretty much dead, and if it doesnt succeed on its first try the odds have increased it will the next time.

2) Engine overheating will not be a problem IF the pilot enriches fuel mixture as required, the ambient air temperature is low (winter is GOOD), the engine is not detonating and the engne is not being overboosted, easier said than done especially in combat and especially with lower time pilots.

I do believe the Dora was one of the best, if not the best single engine fighter produced during WW2, and as Les brought up earlier, if Tank had his engine 2 years earlier, things over Europe might of wound up very different!

Agreed.

Erich · May 24, 2005

I am finding these posts on the Spit and Dora quite interesting

am curious if you have interviewed Dora 9 pilots to get these assumptions or facts ? or is this from research through ? what books please.

If you are going by what Englishman Eric Brown has to say then it is bunk as Eric never came up agasint a Dora let alone flew one for the Luftwaffe in combat

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 24, 2005

the lancaster kicks ass said:
Soren said:

plan_D said:

Your original comment was saying that at 400 mph the D-9 was the hottest fighter of the war.

I merely state that while that is true, combat doesn't stay at 400 mph for long.

Click to expand...

I was talking while in Split S maneuvers, a reverse Cuban maneuver would just do aswell. Bottom line is, the D-9 should stay above 400mph, and not get below 380mph. Above 400mph the D-9 is THE hottest fighter of WW2.

Click to expand...

so you're suggesting that for the entire dogfight the D-9 simply does split Ss or reverse cubans?? and that's gonna get the spit shot down?? eventually the D-9'll have to do something else, and eventually the speed'll come down, and they wouldn't stay at full speed for long anyway, i can think or more appealing situations than being out of fuel or having a overheated engine..........

No the Split S are mostly used for defensive purposes to keep from getting shot down.

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