Gold-Clash

[evangilder]

Pilot skill has alot to do with it. The Finns did some serious damage with Brewster Buffaloes and there were some Filipino pilots that shot down Zeroes with P-26s!! I would think that the P-26 kills over the Zero also involved some luck though.

 

[cheddar cheese]

SOME luck? Thats an underestimation

 

[Soren]

I agree 100%..... The -51D won the battles because of sheer #'s of aircraft...... As has been pointed out many times here, how can 4 alert -109's possibly combat 30 -51D's??? Prayer and a good chute......

That the 109's lacked fuel didnt help the matter either. Considdering what the LW had to cope with, they did better than the Allies if you ask me. And the 109 remained more than competitive to the very end.

But it also goes both ways.... An excellent -51D pilot could easily handle an equally skilled pilot in a -109.... Combat conditions vary, and so do pilots instincts and reactions...

I agree, it depends very much on the pilot ! Strictly talking the two planes, the 109 G-10 was a better dogfighter than the P-51 though. But if the P-51 pilot knew his plane it would be a very tough fight for them both.

Its very much about knowing your plane's strengths and weaknesses.

Intereseting choice... I would go with the -190D-9 as a pure fighter, and the -51D as an escort.......

No no no, I meant in this Clash between the P-51 and 109 As a pure fighter the 109 G-10 'was' superior to the P-51.

Amongst all German fighters the Dora-9 was better than the 109 G-10 though.

Thats why the greatest pilots that lived through the war should be especially regarded by people such as ourselves......

True.

I agree once again, but some would add that the Spit IX was the better of the Spits......

I don't see why though, as the Spit XIV 'was' concluded better by the British themselves. But it may be a case of 'looks' then

 

[lesofprimus]

Considdering what the LW had to cope with, they did better than the Allies if you ask me. And the 109 remained more than competitive to the very end.

100% Correct....

No no no, I meant in this Clash between the P-51 and 109

OK gotcha.....

I don't see why though, as the Spit XIV 'was' concluded better by the British themselves.

The IX was considered the better dogfighter, and more agile of the 2... I also agree with u that the XIV was the better aircraft...

But.... Many pilots preferred the IX to the XIV, but I think that it was probably more so becasue of mission parameters and pilot preference than actual performance differences....

There are a couple of Spit guys here that could probably go over more of the refined differences off the top o their heads....

Amongst all German fighters the Dora-9 was better than the 109 G-10 though.

100% correct, IMO and Urs as well.. Some will have different opinions on this.....

 

[Soren]

The IX was considered the better dogfighter, and more agile of the 2... I also agree with u that the XIV was the better aircraft...

I agree that some British pilots liked the IX better because of its lighter stick forces, but actual British tests confirm that the XIV was infact as or even more maneuverable than the IX. (With higher stick forces though)

But.... Many pilots preferred the IX to the XIV, but I think that it was probably more so becasue of mission parameters and pilot preference than actual performance differences....

Well it was most likely because of the IX's 'easier' handling.

100% correct, IMO and Urs as well..

Well in some respects yeah, but the Spit XIV was VERY competitive to the Dora-9 though. And in a clash between the Dora-9 and Spit XIV, it souly depends on the pilot.

 

[plan_D]

Yes, it was ease of handling that made some pilots prefer the Mk. IX (or Mk.VIII) to the Mk.XIV.

I personally think the Mk.XIV is the best, I prefer increased speed over low-speed manuverability. Also, I think the Mk.VIII is better than the Mk.IX. The Mk.IX was a stop-gap, the Mk.VIII was the definative Merlin-engined Spitfire.

The Mk.VIII only served in Burma and Italy though. The Mk.IX had the advantage of using old Mk.V airframes.

 

[Erich]

The Fw 190D was not superiror to the G-10 though..............

Thje G-10 had a better high altitidue performance and was faster in the haul out-straight shot

 

[lesofprimus]

I'll be honest... I know alot more about the Dora than I do about the G-10...

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

Thats why the greatest pilots that lived through the war should be especially regarded by people such as ourselves......

'ang on, can i just say that ANY fighter pilot that lived through the war should be "specailly regarded" the greats should get no more regard than a guy with one kill, they were all up there fighting, they are all equally deserving of our "regard".........

 

[Nonskimmer]

I see what you're saying lanc. I have the highest regard for all the pilots, including bomber guys like my grandfather and their crews. It's just that the aces naturally deserve some special recognition for their success. What's so wrong about that?

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

nothing, it's just he made it sound like only aces/great pilots deserverd our "regards".....

 

[Soren]

Thats why the greatest pilots that lived through the war should be especially regarded by people such as ourselves......

'ang on, can i just say that ANY fighter pilot that lived through the war should be "specailly regarded" the greats should get no more regard than a guy with one kill, they were all up there fighting, they are all equally deserving of our "regard".........

Ofcourse. They all risked their lives, so they should all be specially regarded.

The Fw 190D was not superiror to the G-10 though..............

No the Dora-9 was infact a tiny bit better, its very close though.

The Dora-9 was superior because of its excellent high speed handling, superb roll rate and diving caracteristics.

The 109 G10 was a better T&B fighter, and below 400mph would have no problem outturning the Dora-9. The G-10 was also a better climber. But in the end these two qualities arent enough, as the Dora-9 would just avoid the 109 in exactly the same way it did the Spitfire.

The G-10 had a better high altitidue performance and was faster in the haul out-straight shot.

And the Dora-9 had slightly better engine performance at low altitude.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Der Adler:

What on earth makes you think i was referring to you when commenting on the allied propaganda over fed ghoulies?

Perhaps i should have added a "you know who you are" to my idea.

Actually to be honest I wasn't talking about myself but rather for the group as a whole! Thank you very much

Do not misunderstand the core of my comment: i see the Bf109, throughout its entire chain of evolution, as one of the greatest fighters of WWII. Or did i ever anything like "combat with enemy fighters in the Bf 109 was piece of cake"?

I agree with you on this and I would place the 109 up there with the Spitfire, P-51, Fw-190, and the P-38.

So there is footage showing German planes getting creamed by allied fighters? Pointless remark.

Insert foot in mouth and then please read Plan_D's post on last page.

 

[lesofprimus]

nothing, it's just he made it sound like only aces/great pilots deserverd our "regards".....

U mis-interpeted my meaning Lanc........ All pilots, dead or alive, who fought in that war should be held in high regard....

It's just that the aces naturally deserve some special recognition for their success.

Thats a better way of saying what I meant.....

I feel the -190D was a better combat aircraft at its desired altitude than the G-10 was at its.........

We need to stop agreeing Soren..........

 

[Erich]

guys both Dora and G-10 were supposed to be developed to counter high altitidue P-51's. The G-10 as a Höhenjager was superior

 

[lesofprimus]

Hmmmm.... I cannot find any evidence to support that Erich.... Although, everywhere I look, it seems that most Luftwaffe pilots regarded the -190D as the best plane the Luftwaffe produced.... I spent 20 minutes searching and couldnt find anyting to support ur statement....

I will agree tho that both were designed for high altitude combat...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Everything I have ever seen would support that that the 190s were supeirior to the 109s. I dont know maybe Erich knows something we dont.

 

[Erich]

the G-10 becasue of it's speed and height was able to accept equal terms with the P-51 in aerial combat over the Reich but on 9 out of 10 combats on a regualr basis the P-51's by sheer numbers had the advantage as well as the altitidue already in the favour while the G-10's and Doras had to climb unequally to meet their opponent.

the Dora 9 used by JG 26 was to try and counter the RAF spitifire. The Dora/III./JG 54, flying high cover for Kommando Nowotny was to try and keep the P-51/Spitfire escorts at bay and away from the jet airfields.............they failed at doing so.

The Doras in II./JG 301 were to fly high cover for Fw 190A-8 and A-9's of I. and III./JG 301 when on anti-bomber missions.

JG 2's Doras were to try and counter anything that was Allied.

G-10's used by IV./JG 301 were to counter the US P-51's but failed.

G-10's on the Ost front used by JG's 51, and 52 dared to have any soviet a/c meet them on the higer plane and the Soviets suffered from it unless having a 10 to 1 superirority ratio which was common in the spring of 45.

G-10's were used by NJG 11 as a whole throughout late 1944 till war's end to counter high altitidue Mosquito's and then once called off of that to intercept Lancs/Halibags without the useage of radar to make Mossie nf interception that much harder..........

just some examples.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Aah as I said he probably knows somethign that we do not.

 

[Soren]

the G-10 becasue of it's speed and height was able to accept equal terms with the P-51 in aerial combat over the Reich but on 9 out of 10 combats on a regualr basis the P-51's by sheer numbers had the advantage as well as the altitidue already in the favour while the G-10's and Doras had to climb unequally to meet their opponent.

the Dora 9 used by JG 26 was to try and counter the RAF spitifire. The Dora/III./JG 54, flying high cover for Kommando Nowotny was to try and keep the P-51/Spitfire escorts at bay and away from the jet airfields.............they failed at doing so.

The Doras in II./JG 301 were to fly high cover for Fw 190A-8 and A-9's of I. and III./JG 301 when on anti-bomber missions.

JG 2's Doras were to try and counter anything that was Allied.

G-10's used by IV./JG 301 were to counter the US P-51's but failed.

G-10's on the Ost front used by JG's 51, and 52 dared to have any soviet a/c meet them on the higer plane and the Soviets suffered from it unless having a 10 to 1 superirority ratio which was common in the spring of 45.

G-10's were used by NJG 11 as a whole throughout late 1944 till war's end to counter high altitidue Mosquito's and then once called off of that to intercept Lancs/Halibags without the useage of radar to make Mossie nf interception that much harder..........

just some examples.

Theres nothing wrong with this, but it still doesnt make the G-10 a better fighter than the Dora-9.

The G-10 was a worthy opponent for any Allied fighter, sure, even better than most, but this was even more true with the 190D-9.

If in a 'tough spot', the D-9 always had one VERY reliable escape maneuver, Split S's, as nothing could follow a D-9's Split S maneuver. And as the speed increases to 400mph, the D-9 quickly becomes THE hottest fighter to hit the air in WW2.