michaelmaltby
Colonel
"... civilized warfare is an oxymoron"
Agreed.
Agreed.
Great Civil War site
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As long as the author brings personalities into play I should enjoy it Forrest.Alittle note I am sure most you are aware of but maybe not some of the younger one's on a side note that Patton use to sit on the knees of Stuart and Longstreet growing up listening to the stories and I am sure that Stuart had some good ones.Now we know partly how Patton probably ended up in the Calvary.I can honestly say that this thread has enlightened me some
Cheers
mikewint
Captain
Javlin, excellent, I did not know that, though I do recall (from somewhere) that Patton have visions/dreams of having lived former lives where he had been a warrior in ancient times. Wonder if stuart/longstreet's tales reinforced that notion?
PCScipio42
Airman 1st Class
Patton had several Confederate ancestors, his father was a friend of John Mosby. Stuart was killed in 1864 at Yellow Tavern so it's not possible for Patton to have known him.
Longstreet was ostracized by much of the south after the war. He was a friend of US Grant's and I believe accepted a position offered by Grant. Longstreet's memoirs, written long after the war, criticized Lee for Gettysburg and did not go over well with Lost Cause writers such as Early. Not that Early and Longstreet were ever friends. One of the reasons that it took forever for a statue of Longstreet to be erected at Gettysburg.
Longstreet was ostracized by much of the south after the war. He was a friend of US Grant's and I believe accepted a position offered by Grant. Longstreet's memoirs, written long after the war, criticized Lee for Gettysburg and did not go over well with Lost Cause writers such as Early. Not that Early and Longstreet were ever friends. One of the reasons that it took forever for a statue of Longstreet to be erected at Gettysburg.
mikewint
Captain
I love to speculate. What do you all think of this - PART ONE
In the spring of 1863 General R.E. Lee's Confederate army crossed the Potomac for the second time in the hope of relieving devastated areas of the Confederacy and bringing the war to a successful conclusion. For several weeks he maneuvered freely in Pennsylvania without encountering United States forces, however, about the first of July, Lee found the US forces entrenched at Gettysburg, a town in Southern Pennsylvania. Though having superior numbers, the union forces were unable to initiate any forward movement.
Among the better US soldiers there was much discontent over the recent illegal "Emancipation Proclamation," which in their view had changed the nature of the war, and over the dismissal of the popular General McClellan. Historians have often noted that, generally speaking, the best generals and soldiers in the "Union" armies were not supporters of the Republican Party or the Lincoln administration. Republicans and especially abolitionists tended to avoid military service in the war they had initiated.
After several days of probing attacks by Lee, the decisive breakthrough came on July 3, the eve of a day revered by lovers of liberty and self-government throughout the world. Pickett's fresh division and Pettigrew's seasoned veterans broke through the center of the Union line, its weakest point in terms of terrain. Military historians have noted the striking similarity between this attack and the French breaking of the Austrian center at the Battle of Solferino just four years before.
There were heavy casualties on both sides, but the ever-vigilant General Longstreet exploited the breakthrough and rolled up one wing of the union army. The other wing began retreating toward Washington to defend the government there. The noted Confederate cavalryman Stuart arrived at last and began to dog the retreat, which was made miserable by torrential rains and blistering heat.
Some US troops fought bravely, especially General Hancock, a Pennsylvanian, later President of the US, and Col. Joshua Chamberlain of Maine, later US ambassador to the Confederate States. But when the Democratic governors of New York and Illinois ordered their regiments to suspend fighting and return home, the remaining "Union" forces retreated to the inner defenses of the capital, ironically named for a great Virginian who was a relative of General Lee.
On Independence Day following the battle, former President Franklin Pierce addressed a cheering crowd at the capitol in Concord, New Hampshire. Pierce had never wavered in his support for the Constitution despite threats from the Lincoln government. The tide has turned, Pierce told the audience, and the Constitution and liberty of the Fathers would soon be restored in peace.
Lincoln had always been careful to stay away from fighting, visiting his forces only in quiet periods, in contrast to President Davis who was often on the battlefield. Immediately upon receiving the news of Gettysburg, Lincoln wired General Grant, an undistinguished officer who had been trying unsuccessfully for months, with a large force, to capture the small Confederate garrison at Vicksburg on the Mississippi River. Grant was ordered to retreat at once into Tennessee and bring his army by rail to the defense of Washington. For reasons that have long been disputed by historians, Grant refused to carry out his order.
Grant was replaced by General Rosecrans, who attempted to carry out Lincoln's orders. He found, unfortunately, Confederate General Forrest had got in his rear and destroyed his immense supply bases along the Tennessee River. His hands were further tied by an uprising across central and western Kentucky. Rosecrans finally came to rest near Columbus, Ohio, where he could subsist his army.
Taking advantage of Rosecrans withdrawal, Confederate General Dick Taylor, son of a former President of the US, moved down the Mississippi to liberate New Orleans. The "Union" commanders there, General "Beast" Butler and Admiral Porter, who were unsavory characters even by the standards of the Lincoln party, absconded from New Orleans with $2 million in cotton for their personal profit. They were later heard of in South America, where Butler tried unsuccessfully to make himself President of Uruguay. President Davis was able to declare to the world that now, after two years of obstruction, "the Mississippi flowed unvexed to the sea."
The rejoicing of the people of New Orleans, white and black, at freedom from military occupation, was riotous. It was truly laissez le bon temps roulez. More importantly, ships began to make their way through the dissolving (and illegal) naval blockage and enter New Orleans and other Southern ports, bringing much needed munitions and medicines. Among the ships were a number from the Northern States looking for cotton and ready to pay gold rather than the rapidly depreciating US greenbacks. A number of Lincoln's strongest New England supporters were involved in the trade, which was illegal to them by Lincoln's order.
A small force left behind in Mississippi by Rosecrans was captured by Forrest. The commander of this force was one General Sherman. Among papers found with Sherman were plans from the Lincoln government for a war of terrorism to be waged systematically against women and children in the South. These included detailed instructions, with illustrations for the soldiers. Houses were to be pillaged and then burned, along with all farm buildings and tools and standing crops. Livestock was to be killed or carried away and food confiscated or destroyed.
Particular emphasis was laid on destructions of family heirlooms – pictures of dead loved ones, Bibles, wedding dresses, and pianos. There were also directions as to how to persuade, or coerce if persuasion failed, black servants into divulging the whereabouts of hidden valuables.
The revelation of these papers shocked the world and played a significant part in the later war crimes trial of Lincoln. Sherman had issued additional orders, urging his soldiers to "make the damned traitorous rebel women and children howl." At his trial later, Sherman defended himself. His actions had been called for, he said, because Americans had too much freedom and needed to be brought under obedience to government like Europeans. The trial of the United States vs. Sherman resulted in a famous precedent-setting verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity.
Meanwhile, Lee waited outside Washington without attacking and the Confederate government renewed the offer made in 1861 and never answered, to negotiate all issues with the US in good faith, on principles of justice and equity. Many of the remaining Union soldiers slipped quietly away, consoling themselves with a popular song in the New York music halls, which went, "I ain't gonna fight for Ole Abe no more, no more!"
There then occurred one of the extraordinary unexpected historical events, which brought about a dramatic shift in the situation. Lincoln attempted to escape Washington, as he entered, in disguise. He was taken prisoner by Colonel Mosby, a Confederate partisan who operated freely in northern Virginia. Very shortly after, Mosby's men intercepted a band of assassins intent on killing Lincoln. It was soon revealed that Booth, a double agent, had been hired by the "Union" Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton, and certain Radical Republican leaders in Congress, to remove "Honest Abe" and make way for a military dictatorship under a reliable Republican.
Subsequently indicted by the US for his part in the attempted assassination, Stanton hanged himself in his prison cell, shouting, "Now I belong to the ages!" Vice President Hannibal Hamlin fled to Boston and then to Canada where he issued a statement that he bore no responsibility for the illegal acts and aggressions committed by the administration.
In the spring of 1863 General R.E. Lee's Confederate army crossed the Potomac for the second time in the hope of relieving devastated areas of the Confederacy and bringing the war to a successful conclusion. For several weeks he maneuvered freely in Pennsylvania without encountering United States forces, however, about the first of July, Lee found the US forces entrenched at Gettysburg, a town in Southern Pennsylvania. Though having superior numbers, the union forces were unable to initiate any forward movement.
Among the better US soldiers there was much discontent over the recent illegal "Emancipation Proclamation," which in their view had changed the nature of the war, and over the dismissal of the popular General McClellan. Historians have often noted that, generally speaking, the best generals and soldiers in the "Union" armies were not supporters of the Republican Party or the Lincoln administration. Republicans and especially abolitionists tended to avoid military service in the war they had initiated.
After several days of probing attacks by Lee, the decisive breakthrough came on July 3, the eve of a day revered by lovers of liberty and self-government throughout the world. Pickett's fresh division and Pettigrew's seasoned veterans broke through the center of the Union line, its weakest point in terms of terrain. Military historians have noted the striking similarity between this attack and the French breaking of the Austrian center at the Battle of Solferino just four years before.
There were heavy casualties on both sides, but the ever-vigilant General Longstreet exploited the breakthrough and rolled up one wing of the union army. The other wing began retreating toward Washington to defend the government there. The noted Confederate cavalryman Stuart arrived at last and began to dog the retreat, which was made miserable by torrential rains and blistering heat.
Some US troops fought bravely, especially General Hancock, a Pennsylvanian, later President of the US, and Col. Joshua Chamberlain of Maine, later US ambassador to the Confederate States. But when the Democratic governors of New York and Illinois ordered their regiments to suspend fighting and return home, the remaining "Union" forces retreated to the inner defenses of the capital, ironically named for a great Virginian who was a relative of General Lee.
On Independence Day following the battle, former President Franklin Pierce addressed a cheering crowd at the capitol in Concord, New Hampshire. Pierce had never wavered in his support for the Constitution despite threats from the Lincoln government. The tide has turned, Pierce told the audience, and the Constitution and liberty of the Fathers would soon be restored in peace.
Lincoln had always been careful to stay away from fighting, visiting his forces only in quiet periods, in contrast to President Davis who was often on the battlefield. Immediately upon receiving the news of Gettysburg, Lincoln wired General Grant, an undistinguished officer who had been trying unsuccessfully for months, with a large force, to capture the small Confederate garrison at Vicksburg on the Mississippi River. Grant was ordered to retreat at once into Tennessee and bring his army by rail to the defense of Washington. For reasons that have long been disputed by historians, Grant refused to carry out his order.
Grant was replaced by General Rosecrans, who attempted to carry out Lincoln's orders. He found, unfortunately, Confederate General Forrest had got in his rear and destroyed his immense supply bases along the Tennessee River. His hands were further tied by an uprising across central and western Kentucky. Rosecrans finally came to rest near Columbus, Ohio, where he could subsist his army.
Taking advantage of Rosecrans withdrawal, Confederate General Dick Taylor, son of a former President of the US, moved down the Mississippi to liberate New Orleans. The "Union" commanders there, General "Beast" Butler and Admiral Porter, who were unsavory characters even by the standards of the Lincoln party, absconded from New Orleans with $2 million in cotton for their personal profit. They were later heard of in South America, where Butler tried unsuccessfully to make himself President of Uruguay. President Davis was able to declare to the world that now, after two years of obstruction, "the Mississippi flowed unvexed to the sea."
The rejoicing of the people of New Orleans, white and black, at freedom from military occupation, was riotous. It was truly laissez le bon temps roulez. More importantly, ships began to make their way through the dissolving (and illegal) naval blockage and enter New Orleans and other Southern ports, bringing much needed munitions and medicines. Among the ships were a number from the Northern States looking for cotton and ready to pay gold rather than the rapidly depreciating US greenbacks. A number of Lincoln's strongest New England supporters were involved in the trade, which was illegal to them by Lincoln's order.
A small force left behind in Mississippi by Rosecrans was captured by Forrest. The commander of this force was one General Sherman. Among papers found with Sherman were plans from the Lincoln government for a war of terrorism to be waged systematically against women and children in the South. These included detailed instructions, with illustrations for the soldiers. Houses were to be pillaged and then burned, along with all farm buildings and tools and standing crops. Livestock was to be killed or carried away and food confiscated or destroyed.
Particular emphasis was laid on destructions of family heirlooms – pictures of dead loved ones, Bibles, wedding dresses, and pianos. There were also directions as to how to persuade, or coerce if persuasion failed, black servants into divulging the whereabouts of hidden valuables.
The revelation of these papers shocked the world and played a significant part in the later war crimes trial of Lincoln. Sherman had issued additional orders, urging his soldiers to "make the damned traitorous rebel women and children howl." At his trial later, Sherman defended himself. His actions had been called for, he said, because Americans had too much freedom and needed to be brought under obedience to government like Europeans. The trial of the United States vs. Sherman resulted in a famous precedent-setting verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity.
Meanwhile, Lee waited outside Washington without attacking and the Confederate government renewed the offer made in 1861 and never answered, to negotiate all issues with the US in good faith, on principles of justice and equity. Many of the remaining Union soldiers slipped quietly away, consoling themselves with a popular song in the New York music halls, which went, "I ain't gonna fight for Ole Abe no more, no more!"
There then occurred one of the extraordinary unexpected historical events, which brought about a dramatic shift in the situation. Lincoln attempted to escape Washington, as he entered, in disguise. He was taken prisoner by Colonel Mosby, a Confederate partisan who operated freely in northern Virginia. Very shortly after, Mosby's men intercepted a band of assassins intent on killing Lincoln. It was soon revealed that Booth, a double agent, had been hired by the "Union" Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton, and certain Radical Republican leaders in Congress, to remove "Honest Abe" and make way for a military dictatorship under a reliable Republican.
Subsequently indicted by the US for his part in the attempted assassination, Stanton hanged himself in his prison cell, shouting, "Now I belong to the ages!" Vice President Hannibal Hamlin fled to Boston and then to Canada where he issued a statement that he bore no responsibility for the illegal acts and aggressions committed by the administration.
You are right Forrest it was John Mosby of Jeb Stuart's unit my mistake here is the quick article showing some of the links......
John Mosby and George Patton
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
Was reading a book by T R Fehrenbach, a rather well known historian who lived in Texas, this weekend and learned something I had forgotten. The early settlers in Texas were of two types. The Planters who settled in southeast Texas who owned slaves and raised and sold cotton and the subsistence farmers, many of whom were of Scots Irish descent who lived up the rivers to the Gulf and raised corn and disliked slavery and Blacks. Strangely, in Texas, the subsistence famers mostly supported secession and the Planters opposed it at first. There were about 400000 Whites in Texas in 1860 and about 140000 Blacks, mostly slaves but some freed men.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
Great insight into the make-up of early Texas ... that said, doesn't the "two types" sort of apply to the Deep South generally - i.e. poor dirt farmers who were freemen, and landed 'gentry' (with capital - hence slaves) that were planters and had 'aspirations' .. .?
I mean ... when you read about Lee's soldiers marching barefoot and foraging green corn from the fields ... these were fierce, proud, poor men ..... coulda been Bruce's men.
MM
.?I mean ... when you read about Lee's soldiers marching barefoot and foraging green corn from the fields ... these were fierce, proud, poor men ..... coulda been Bruce's men.
MM
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renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
I think generally that the majority of the Southern Confederacy was made up of the two types; planters and subsistence farmers. One of the big determinants of for or against secession was the fear of what would happen if the sizable population of black slaves were suddenly turned loose. John Brown had fanned the flames of the perception that suddenly freed slaves would kill, rape and pillage. That was a major reason that a great many non slave owners favored secession over abolition. During the war when the number of able bodied white men became sparse very few incidents of the slaves running amok were recorded.
As Fehrenbach has written the difficult and bloody history of the gestation of Texas from the 1820s to 1860 and beyond made for a citizen with a somehat different attitude than the citizens of the other states. Just one example is that San Antonio is the most fought over city on the North American continent.
As Fehrenbach has written the difficult and bloody history of the gestation of Texas from the 1820s to 1860 and beyond made for a citizen with a somehat different attitude than the citizens of the other states. Just one example is that San Antonio is the most fought over city on the North American continent.
mikewint
Captain
Those differences were the #1 cause of the civil war:
1. Economic and social differences between the North and the South.
With Eli Whitney's invention of the cotton gin in 1793, cotton became very profitable. This machine was able to reduce the time it took to separate seeds from the cotton. However, at the same time the increase in the number of plantations willing to move from other crops to cotton meant the greater need for a large amount of cheap labor, i.e. slaves. Thus, the southern economy became a one crop economy, depending on cotton and therefore on slavery. On the other hand, the northern economy was based more on industry than agriculture. In fact, the northern industries were purchasing the raw cotton and turning it into finished goods. This disparity between the two set up a major difference in economic attitudes. The South was based on the plantation system while the North was focused on city life. This change in the North meant that society evolved as people of different cultures and classes had to work together. On the other hand, the South continued to hold onto an antiquated social order.
1. Economic and social differences between the North and the South.
With Eli Whitney's invention of the cotton gin in 1793, cotton became very profitable. This machine was able to reduce the time it took to separate seeds from the cotton. However, at the same time the increase in the number of plantations willing to move from other crops to cotton meant the greater need for a large amount of cheap labor, i.e. slaves. Thus, the southern economy became a one crop economy, depending on cotton and therefore on slavery. On the other hand, the northern economy was based more on industry than agriculture. In fact, the northern industries were purchasing the raw cotton and turning it into finished goods. This disparity between the two set up a major difference in economic attitudes. The South was based on the plantation system while the North was focused on city life. This change in the North meant that society evolved as people of different cultures and classes had to work together. On the other hand, the South continued to hold onto an antiquated social order.
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Interesting thread lads!
I have a question, how many Swedes fought in the civil war, I only know that there were a few on both sides....
I have a question, how many Swedes fought in the civil war, I only know that there were a few on both sides....
