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SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I thought this was a different thread.
Greatest aviation myth this site “de-bunked”.
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if you're going to pick on German fighter pilot claims then the myth that the claims of allied fighter pilots were to be taken as gospel should be there. The over claiming was 2:1 and as bad as any and we may find quite possibly the worst. The nadir was likely the Korean War when a 10:1 exchange ratio was claimed but the exchange ratio was less than 2:1 and possibly even.
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33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,265
- Jan 31, 2021
Over-claiming happened on every side, no matter how thorough the verification process. It was inevitable given the nature of air combat, where one aircraft might be attacked by three opposing aircraft, all of which might claim the kill, as well as pilots trying to recount dynamic events in detail hours afterward. Sometimes, it worked the other way, with aircraft claimed as only damaged which were in fact kills, but not known until after the war when cross-checking was done.
The quick rule-of-thumb is to take the total fighter kill claims and divide by three. That gets one fairly close to the actual total.
Pilot claims are actually proportional to the number of pilots involved, on average it was 2 to 1 most of the time. up to 10 to 1 when air gunners are concerned. Claims about hits on the ground against tanks are generally fantasy because the pilot cant see and has no way of assessing damage.
From what I've seen the claims versus actual ratio was about 2:1 on both sides. The Luftwaffe was certainly not the only air force that over claimed and hence I objected. American gunners initially over claimed by 100:1 during big week, which gives an idea of the problem of attributing kills in formation flying and the issues created by awarding a medal.
Some of the over claim myths come from the reinforcing myths propaganda exaggerating exchange ratios to buoy or delude the spirits of the population. I think Adler Tag cost the Luftwaffe 60 aircraft whereas the BBC claimed 180. Surely there weren't 180 wrecks over Britain or 120 in the channel.
I recall Heinz Knock making a claim against a Mosquito over water in the fog (he had an instrument rating and radar guidance) that had just disrupted a Nazi rally in Berlin that can't be reconciled with RAF losses. If that was indeed a false claim I don't blame him as it kept Goering of the Luftwaffe back by being able to say the Mosquitoes didn't get away. The pressure to get a result would have been immense since weather had grounded other Me 109 and Goering personally called the Geschwader commander to force them to scramble.
Nevertheless Luftwaffe over claims were no worse than allied. I don't think other pilots liked it.
Most "tank kills" would have been mobility kills likely soon repaired. A claim by a slow flying Ju 87 with a rear gunner likely more accurate than a fast moving single seat fighter.
To kill tanks on the Eastern from Luftwaffe used Fw 190 to fly over the tank and release a time delayed bomb (SC250 or 4 x SC50) when the tank disappeared under the nose which then slid into the tank. It was regarded as an accurate method and must have produced a true kill. The pilot would not see the hit.
Sorry when I said pilots I should have said eyes. In a bomber formation there were hundreds firing at an enemy and if one goes down you cant say they didn't fire at it, they probably didn't hit it though. On the mass raids on London "Adler Tag" there were more RAF pilots than normal in the BoB so the claims reflect that. Some of the overclaiming myths also come from fame hungry pilots wanting and iron cross, then some oak leaves and some swords and then even diamonds, claiming kills when they hadn't even fired their guns.
Erich Hartmann, who had oak leaves, swords and demands, probably the only fighter pilot who ever did, didn't over claim. He never lost a wingman and those wingmen were mostly by his side. His claims have been intensely scrutinized and many involved close range precision shooting. He was known for blowing an oil cooler of an IL-2 with a single round.
The Luftwaffe didn't have aces, it did have pilots declared as "Experten" which was about 10 claims and involved achieving some skill at mentoring. There certainly wasn't a star shooter system. That's just sour grapes.
Are you kidding me, it was a system of propaganda, like Hollywood Oscars or the Ballon d'Or. Rudel had golden oak leaves (whatever that means). Here is a list, most are actually pilots, though Rommel gets in there, few other generals or admirals do let alone captains or soldiers. I was actually referring to Mr Marseille. List of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross recipients - Wikipedia
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,265
- Jan 31, 2021
After the March 6, 1944, attack on Berlin, the USAAF bomber gunners claimed 97 German fighters shot down, while the escorting fighters claimed 82 shot down, or a total of 179. Actual German fighters losses were 67. German fighters and flak together claimed 108 heavy bombers and 20 escort fighters shot down. Actual U.S. losses were 69 heavy bombers and 11 fighters.
These figures come from Jeffrey Ethell and Alfred Price's book Target Berlin — Mission 250: 6 March 1944, which tells the story of the first major USAAF daylight raid on Berlin.
In the case of the 8th Air Force over claiming, what could they do ?
Lets say you have a enemy fighter come through the bomber box, 8 or so gunners shoot at it.
It's starts smoking, and then explodes.
At the end of the mission every crew member, of every aircraft gets debriefed .
Then the debriefers get together.
How can they decide who fired the decisive shots ?
They probably can't even determine who shot at it last, let alone if that person actually hit it.
So they take the easy way out and award each gunner who fired at it a victory, not a partial, or a assist.
That way the gunners are encouraged, they're not freezing their butts off for nothing.
They report the total claims in a press release, it looks impressive in print.
But everybody up the chain of command knows it's BS, it's just propaganda.
The 8th AF knew at the end of the day on Mar. 6th, 44, the Luftwaffe didn't lose 97 fighters to their gunners.
Did the 8th factor those numbers down some way in their own internal records ?
Germany controlled the ground under which this fight took place, they would have a fairly good idea of how many enemy aircraft they brought down.
But they could never find them all.
So if their numbers are inflated they're engaging in the same propaganda BS for the home front readers.
Lets say you have a enemy fighter come through the bomber box, 8 or so gunners shoot at it.
It's starts smoking, and then explodes.
At the end of the mission every crew member, of every aircraft gets debriefed .
Then the debriefers get together.
How can they decide who fired the decisive shots ?
They probably can't even determine who shot at it last, let alone if that person actually hit it.
So they take the easy way out and award each gunner who fired at it a victory, not a partial, or a assist.
That way the gunners are encouraged, they're not freezing their butts off for nothing.
They report the total claims in a press release, it looks impressive in print.
But everybody up the chain of command knows it's BS, it's just propaganda.
The 8th AF knew at the end of the day on Mar. 6th, 44, the Luftwaffe didn't lose 97 fighters to their gunners.
Did the 8th factor those numbers down some way in their own internal records ?
Germany controlled the ground under which this fight took place, they would have a fairly good idea of how many enemy aircraft they brought down.
But they could never find them all.
So if their numbers are inflated they're engaging in the same propaganda BS for the home front readers.
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,265
- Jan 31, 2021
Target Berlin has a section which looks at the press coverage of each side after the raid. While newspapers on both sides enthusiastically (and uncritically) reported their side's kill claims, U.S. newspapers accurately reported American losses, whereas German papers said nothing about their own losses nor remarked on any bomb damage done to the city other than to say there was minimal damage to industry. (In this instance the statement was correct, but apparently German press routinely made the same statement after every raid no matter the actual damage.) German media commentators also took time later to decry the American claims of the number of German aircraft shot down as ludicrous (while still offering no loss figures of their own).
Snautzer01
Honourably banned
- 40,187
- Mar 26, 2007
Hartmann mis claimed a lot. They checked his claims against loss or damage reports.
Why would you help the enemy by declaring your own accurate loss and damage data? You seem to be implying it's a folksy oaki American virtue and the Germans the dishonest Nazi liars. The German press declared nothing which is a sensible policy. The Germans would know precise American losses by counting the exact number of wrecks they recovered to melt down and so US press statements gave away nothing when they declared US losses truthfully and merely preempted what might have been exploited by German propaganda in the vacuum of information. Had hundreds of Me 264/6m been bombing the US West and East coast from Japanese and European bases I doubt the US would be declaring its losses either nor confining the number of targets destoyed.
Truth telling in western media had never been a matter of integrity. Telling the truth (often enough) is about maintaining credibility so big lies can be told and imposed by overwhelming repetition of a narrative when it is wanted. That's how social and political influence works. I've seen the BBC in action from Falklands, the gulf wars and the Syrian conflict. Moreover and I saw the American media during the last elections, both gulf wars and I know the way this nonsense is managed.
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
The Battle of Britain has to be the best known campaign of overclaiming. The RAF shot down every Bf109 in existence and the LW shot down every Spitfire in existence (no one claimed a Hurricane that would be so low class 
)
The LW fanbois do get a bit of a girly hissy fit if you disparage the claims of their favourites but boy if you mention US overclaims expect the sky to fall in on you.
The only pilot I have ever read of that had all his victories confirmed was an Aussie P40 pilot who to my shame I have forgotten his name.
)The LW fanbois do get a bit of a girly hissy fit if you disparage the claims of their favourites but boy if you mention US overclaims expect the sky to fall in on you.
The only pilot I have ever read of that had all his victories confirmed was an Aussie P40 pilot who to my shame I have forgotten his name.
Perhaps because it was part of the battle itself. German strategy was based in part on what they believed the RAF strength to be. In fact the LW did shoot down Fighter Command in terms of numbers, but those losses were replaced.The Battle of Britain has to be the best known campaign of overclaiming. The RAF shot down every Bf109 in existence and the LW shot down every Spitfire in existence (no one claimed a Hurricane that would be so low class
The LW fanbois do get a bit of a girly hissy fit if you disparage the claims of their favourites but boy if you mention US overclaims expect the sky to fall in on you.
The only pilot I have ever read of that had all his victories confirmed was an Aussie P40 pilot who to my shame I have forgotten his name.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
I think the assumption that all American losses crashed in territory controlled by Germany is doubtful at best.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 3,977
- Jun 25, 2013
All the air forces (at least the ones not run by complete morons) would want an accurate count of enemy losses (presumably, they'd have one of their own). This was obviously easier for somebody who is fighting over their own territories, and most difficult for those fighting over someone else's territory or the ocean.
On the other hand, for both civilian and military morale, the air forces would want to play up their successes, and would tend to publicize a less accurate count.
On the other hand, for both civilian and military morale, the air forces would want to play up their successes, and would tend to publicize a less accurate count.
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,265
- Jan 31, 2021
I'm recounting the book's mentioning of press coverage. Make of it what you will.
Target Berlin, p. 149 and 152:
On the question of bomb damage to Berlin the Lokal-Anzeiger gave little away. There was the usual banal statement that most bombs had fallen on residential districts on the outskirts and the attack caused minimal damage to industry or arms production. Now as it happened the statement was correct concerning the 6 March attack; but Germans interviewed said they had heard the same thing so often before that they did not believe it this time.
Target Berlin, p. 152:
To sum up the media reports: both sides claimed clear-cut victories for the action of 6 March and greatly exaggerated the numbers of enemy aircraft destroyed, the American exaggeration being somewhat greater than the German. But while American losses were honestly stated, those of the Luftwaffe were not mentioned by the German media. The German Propaganda Ministry issued an accurate account of the ineffectual bombing of Berlin but few seemed to have believed it.
It was some 550 miles from U.S. airbases in England to Berlin. Bombers were lost all along the way. Some crashed in occupied Holland. A few made either made it to neutral Sweden or ditched in the North Sea.
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,265
- Jan 31, 2021
There were also additional losses beyond those lost directly to enemy action. Total U.S. losses on the 6 March 1944 action were 74 heavy bombers and 13 fighters. Of the bombers, 69 were lost to enemy action, 4 were written off after returning, and 1 crashed on take-off at the start of the operation. Of the fighters, 11 were lost to enemy action and 2 which returned were written off.
Regarding crew losses:
Of the 701 men on board the US aircraft lost in action 229 were killed or missing, 411 taken prisoner, 13 who came down in Holland evaded capture, 8 were picked up from the North Sea by the RAF rescue service and 40 landed in Sweden and were later repatriated. From the aircraft which returned, 3 crewmen were killed, 29 wounded and 4 were taken prisoner (those who bailed out of the 306th Bomb Group Fortress over Holland).
— Target Berlin, p.142
The other side of the ledger:
In the course of the action 66 German fighters were destroyed or damaged beyond repair. One fighter crashed soon after take-off and two training aircraft were shot down by escort fighters . . . Broken down into types those lost comprised 22 Me 109s, 19 FW 190s, 6 Me 410s, 11 Me 110 day fighters and 9 Me 110 night fighters. Including the pilot in the accident after take-off, 36 German aircrew were killed and 25 wounded; of these 25 of the dead and 21 of the wounded were fighter pilots, among them several experienced and successful ones whose services the Luftwaffe could ill afford to lose.
— Target Berlin, p.143:
