greatest shot allies and axis

[Glider]

Ouch

 

[pattle]

If they could actually hit the target

Cheers

Steve

Ah, but they had tracers for when they were missing.

 

[stona]

Ah, but they had tracers for when they were missing.

Which just showed them that they were missing! Tracer ammunition can be used to adjust the aim if there is time, the shooter is within range and in the ball park. Unfortunately none of these criteria applied to many WW2 fighter pilots.
It had been calculated before the war that something around a 2-3 second burst of fire was all that would be possible in normal circumstances due to the rapid rate at which modern fighters would close the distance between themselves and their target. It's why RAF fighters had eight guns. Leaving aside the time likely to be available for a deflection shot at a high angle off, it is evident that the sort of adjustment a machine gun team with their feet on terra firma might make is not going to be possible. That burst had to more or less start and finish on target. Target fixation, making several attempts to bring guns to bear on a particular target, was considered potentially fatal by aces and experts on all sides.
The best shots were either masters of the deflection shot (Marseilles, Beurling were considered as such) or they fired at zero angle off and got in a decent two or three second burst from their targets six o'clock position (Bader and several other "old" RAF pilots considered this the most effective method).
The Luftwaffe's head on attack against US bombers is a variation on this, but the very high rate at which the attacker approached his target made it a very difficult tactic, particularly for the many under trained Luftwaffe pilots who were struggling to fly their aeroplanes, never mind manage their guns.
Cheers
Steve

 

[pattle]

Which just showed them that they were missing! Tracer ammunition can be used to adjust the aim if there is time, the shooter is within range and in the ball park. Unfortunately none of these criteria applied to many WW2 fighter pilots.
It had been calculated before the war that something around a 2-3 second burst of fire was all that would be possible in normal circumstances due to the rapid rate at which modern fighters would close the distance between themselves and their target. It's why RAF fighters had eight guns. Leaving aside the time likely to be available for a deflection shot at a high angle off, it is evident that the sort of adjustment a machine gun team with their feet on terra firma might make is not going to be possible. That burst had to more or less start and finish on target. Target fixation, making several attempts to bring guns to bear on a particular target, was considered potentially fatal by aces and experts on all sides.
The best shots were either masters of the deflection shot (Marseilles, Beurling were considered as such) or they fired at zero angle off and got in a decent two or three second burst from their targets six o'clock position (Bader and several other "old" RAF pilots considered this the most effective method).
The Luftwaffe's head on attack against US bombers is a variation on this, but the very high rate at which the attacker approached his target made it a very difficult tactic, particularly for the many under trained Luftwaffe pilots who were struggling to fly their aeroplanes, never mind manage their guns.
Cheers
Steve

I was really just mucking about with that comment. But being serious I am pretty confident I have read that Beurling and some others first became aware of the need for deflection shooting after seeing their tracers fall short of target, so even though they had missed that particular target they were able to see where they going wrong and were able to learn from it. I call this learning from experience.

 

[stona]

But being serious I am pretty confident I have read that Beurling and some others first became aware of the need for deflection shooting after seeing their tracers fall short of target, so even though they had missed that particular target they were able to see where they going wrong and were able to learn from it. I call this learning from experience.

As I said before the inability of most pilots to estimate angle off was well established, at least by the RAF. Now a pilot who realised he was under estimating this, seeing his tracer fall behind his target (as long as it didn't disappear under his own nose) and using this experience to increase his estimation next time would be using his intelligence. Experienced pilots were almost invariably better shots, that's probably a major factor why.

Unfortunately, despite all sorts of theoretical instruction and exercises, I have somewhere a document called 'Bag the Hun - Estimation of Range and Angle Off ' with the injunction to 'try this series of exercises and improve your shooting', which contains pages of just this, the standard of gunnery was never very good. It improved after 1942 with better training and it was much improved by the advent of the gyro gun sight which was accurate for up to about twenty degrees angle off.

Cheers

Steve

 

[BiffF15]

Steve,

If that document, "Bag the Hun-Estimation of Range and Angle Off", is postable please do so.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[stona]

A reasonable copy was posted on this very forum.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircrew-equipment/bag-hun-raf-manual-14979.html

I did some of the exercises and concluded that I would have been a very poor shot

Cheers

Steve

 

[merlin]

The De Wilde incendiary round was also a help to RAF pilots during the Battle of Britain as it made it easier for them to see their bullets striking the enemy aircraft.

To be pedantic - The "de Wilde" incendiary round wasn't by de Wilde, the name was kept to appease the original designers and to fool the Germans - trouble is - it's stuck in publication after publication, should be the Dixon incendiary after Capt Aubry Dixon, who given the task of getting the hand built de Wilde into mass production realised it couldn't be done. The designers, had not noted what quantity of the various constituents that made up the mix for the cartridge; fortunately for the RAF Dixon (with no official sanction) perfected his own design.

 

[BiffF15]

A reasonable copy was posted on this very forum.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircrew-equipment/bag-hun-raf-manual-14979.html

I did some of the exercises and concluded that I would have been a very poor shot

Cheers

Steve

Steve,
As with a lot of things, practive makes perfect. Even to this day in the Eagle we use ranging the same way. In the debrief we get the books out to check our range estimation (on no radar lock shots). Other aricraft have a more modern sight than the F-15C which is even more accurate for no lock shots. Aspect, or as it's called in earlier times, Angle Off, is taken out of equation a bit due to how you use the weapon when in the no lock areana. After doing something tens or hundreds of times it becomes second nature. The true "experten" then will go on to do it well under most all circumstances.
Cheers,
Biff