Greatest WWII Military Commanders: Updated

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

monty took over cossack,kicked out most of the rubbish,eg general k.e.n anderson,proposed c.o of brit 2nd army,planned overlord.would that not make him a strategic general.starling.8) .

First of all "Monty" did not plan Overlord. Overlord was planned by many Generals.
You can not give him the credit for Overlord.

i once saw doc areyce nusbacher say..the only way to sttop a german blitz attack,was defence in depth like kursk...well he never read about medenine did he.our monty stopped a whole german panzer corps;10pz div,15pz div and 21pz div,dead.commanded by rommel,again.he gave rommel a real kick in the face,which apparently made rommel ill.poor boy had to go home,i believe.yours,starling.

I recommend that you get over your personal bias and national pride for everything British and learn about other commanders as well.

You make it seem in your posts that Rommel was the most inferior General known to man and he was beaten in every battle he commanded. Frankly you are very very wrong...

Also just to give you a heads up, Rommel did not leave Africa because Monty beat him. Learn some history.

 

[parsifal]

Rommel will always stand very tall for me. Quite apart from his considerable military talents, what stands out for me, was his ability to stand up for what he believed to be right. When ordered to shoot all commandoes summarily, without trial, he very publicly tore up and burned the written orders in the presesence of his IA,

After his expereineces in the Desert, Rommel advocatted a strong shift to Infantry/AT defence, because he doubted the ability of tanks to be as effective in defences. He foresaw the great material advantage of the allies that was coming, and believed the only way to stop it was by a sustained conventional defence, to extract the maximum casulaties out of the allies (which he rightly saw as the allied achilles heel). He also believed it absolutley necessary to seek peace terms for germany after 1943, and was bitterly disappointed when he realized that Hitler intended no such outcome. I believe he foresaw hitlers intentions for Germany, victory or destruction, and was horrified to realize just how out of touch hitler had become.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Rommel will always stand very tall for me. Quite apart from his considerable military talents, what stands out for me, was his ability to stand up for what he believed to be right. When ordered to shoot all commandoes summarily, without trial, he very publicly tore up and burned the written orders in the presesence of his IA,

After his expereineces in the Desert, Rommel advocatted a strong shift to Infantry/AT defence, because he doubted the ability of tanks to be as effective in defences. He foresaw the great material advantage of the allies that was coming, and believed the only way to stop it was by a sustained conventional defence, to extract the maximum casulaties out of the allies (which he rightly saw as the allied achilles heel). He also believed it absolutley necessary to seek peace terms for germany after 1943, and was bitterly disappointed when he realized that Hitler intended no such outcome. I believe he foresaw hitlers intentions for Germany, victory or destruction, and was horrified to realize just how out of touch hitler had become.

I agree, he was a very noble man.

I have met his son on many occasions. He used to be the mayor of the city I lived in. I have actually had dinner with him, when he was the guest of honor for my BN banquent. He did a lot for German/American relations in the Stuttgart area.

I used to travel to Rommels grave site every year as part of the military memorial on the day of his death, and I took a tour of his house near Ulm and got to see his Knights Cross and Pour le Merit as well as several of his uniforms and photo albums.

I actually own an original picture (well sort of original, it is taken from the original negative) of Rommel in Africa that was given to me by his son and a member of the Afrika Corps association.

 

[Njaco]

Chris, that is amazing!

I have always considered Rommel one of the greatest generals not only based on his war exploits but on his character as well.

 

[parsifal]

I agree, he was a very noble man.

I have met his son on many occasions. He used to be the mayor of the city I lived in. I have actually had dinner with him, when he was the guest of honor for my BN banquent. He did a lot for German/American relations in the Stuttgart area.

I used to travel to Rommels grave site every year as part of the military memorial on the day of his death, and I took a tour of his house near Ulm and got to see his Knights Cross and Pour le Merit as well as several of his uniforms and photo albums.

I actually own an original picture (well sort of original, it is taken from the original negative) of Rommel in Africa that was given to me by his son and a member of the Afrika Corps association.

Very impressive.

Im not saying that Rommel was not without fault. What I really object to is mindless criticism not based on any subjective analysis at all. The man deserves better respect than thet, just the same as Monty does for his exploites as well.

I often have wondered what would have happened if Rommel had survived the war. What would have been the effect of his commentary to the post war histories???

 

[Freebird]

I often have wondered what would have happened if Rommel had survived the war. What would have been the effect of his commentary to the post war histories???

He probably would have made some trouble for the post-war balance in East Germany. He seems to be the kind to speak his mind regardless of the consequences.

I wonder if he would have been involved in an "unfortunate accident" if he was in East Germany? Like Patton.....

 

[parsifal]

oooh, are you suggesting that P{atton was done away with???? I'd never heard that, but he was considered a nuisance even by his own side by that stage.....

 

[Kruska]

I often have wondered what would have happened if Rommel had survived the war. What would have been the effect of his commentary to the post war histories???

Sad as it is, but I think he would just have blamed Hitler for everything, such as the majority of the other surviving Wehrmacht "icons".
This is what I do not like; accept about these people (incl. Rommel), they went all along from the very beginning and once the situation turned against Germany or their fortune it simply comes down to Hitler.

Rommel / Kesselring did not take Malta, he was not able to devise and persist on a vital plan in order to conduct his conquest in Africa, he points out at the disastrous fuel situation but still prefers to continue (gambling) instead of pulling back or digging in his troops and pressuring towards High Command and Hitler to ensure a solid basis for an ongoing war.

If he was as open spoken as historians try to make him, well he should have said: My Fuehrer if the supply situation can't be guaranteed or ensured, I advice to pull out the Africa Corps before it becomes exterminated. Off course he never went as far as to forward a pull out, since then his career would have ended drastically.

Generals such as Paul Hausser didn't run around and complain, they made the best out of the prevailing situation, disobeyed openly attack, retreat and battle orders of Hitler in order to ensure a German victory, Kharkov was a classic example, Generals like Rundstedt and Guderian opposed Hitlers orders openly and got sacked, some later reactivated.

As far as I know, Parkinson disease is inherited, Manfred Rommel his son, suffers from it since he is 68/70 and I tend to believe that his father had it too from 1942/3 onward. It is very obvious that E. Rommel deteriorated very rapidly after 1943 and I do not think that it was due to the defeat in Africa or a resignation towards Hitler and the war.

Regards
Kruska

 

[starling]

oh come along gentlemen,monty kicked rommel at alamein,and then kicked him for 1200miles across north africa.and then kicked his arse at medenine.i suppose you will twist this around,poor old rommel.yours,starling.
i also know a very close relative of sir brian horrocks,c.o of different formations in the desert and ending up most famousley as xxx corps commander.yours,starling8) .

 

[Kruska]

oh come along gentlemen,monty kicked rommel at alamein,and then kicked him for 1200miles across north africa.and then kicked his arse at medenine.i suppose you will twist this around,poor old rommel.yours,starling.
i also know a very close relative of sir brian horrocks,c.o of different formations in the desert and ending up most famousley as xxx corps commander.yours,starling8) .

I do appreciate your nationalistic spirit, but why don't you start to "neutrally" analyze Al Alamein till Tunis?

If the 5 fuel tankers would not have been stopped by (Enigma decoding) it would have been most likely Rommel who would have succeeded at Al Alamein. Rommel was defeated at AA but to say he got his butt kicked is not doing the fallen allied soldiers or Germans any favors, it was actually a very costly victory for Monty, especially for the Australians and NZ boys.

After that Monty dragged and moved in slow motion behind Rommel enabling him to set up defenses at Medenine which again were costly for the allies to overcome.

If not for the 2nd front at Tunis, the defensive position at Medenine would have been a second Al Alamein, but in favor for Rommel.

Regards
Kruska

 

[starling]

are you missing mareth out for other reasons kruska.
there were many soldiers from the commmonwealth as well as british soldiers.they fought and died to rid the world of a megalomaniac.or madman.
monty visited his soldiers,talked to them.he sacked commanders in private.rommel ignored manyunits and chastised officers in the open.8th army soldiers trusted monty.yours,starling.

 

[Kruska]

are you missing mareth out for other reasons kruska.
there were many soldiers from the commmonwealth as well as british soldiers.they fought and died to rid the world of a megalomaniac.or madman.
monty visited his soldiers,talked to them.he sacked commanders in private.rommel ignored manyunits and chastised officers in the open.8th army soldiers trusted monty.yours,starling.

Mareth line is Medenine (Operation Pugilist and Supercharge II) you joker. Operation Capri at Medenine was an attempt to delay the British attack on Mareth. Any general will visit and talk and ......

Which units did Rommel ignore? and which occasions are you refering to in regards to chastising his officers?

Regards
Kruska

 

[parsifal]

Hi Starling

The british did defeat the Axis at Alamein, and that did result in a long retreat from Egypt all the way to Tunis, and beyond. However, Montgomery did not defeat Rommel by outmanouvering him. He defeated Rommel by forcing the battle to be fought as an attritional excercise, which was a battle the Axis could not win. This is why the italians call Alamein "the battle without hope".

How did the Axis find themselves at such a material disadvantage? It has a lot to do with the poor strategic choices made by the axis leadership, the most immediate of which was the failure to take Malta. Rommel played his part in this poor decision making. Quite simply also the Axis in the North African scenario werre very badly outnumbered.

But there were also things happening that affected the outcome of the air-land battle in Africa, over which neither Monty or rommel had any control. Chief among these was the defeat of the Axis at sea, with the Italians and Germans no longer able to control the central basin. This was primarily a battle that pitted the Royal Navy against Supermarina and the LW. Despite the most frightful of attrition, the RN was, in the end, able to retain Malta as a functional base, that spelt the death knell for the Axis forces in Egypt.

Then, of course, there was the Anglo-American landings in French North Africa. here again, neither monty or Rommel had any direct influence on the events. The landings in western africa, spelt the end for DAK, and Rommel knew it. He repeatedly recommended the evacuation of the forces to Europe, but was constantly overruled. All of a sudden, Hitler saw Africa as important, so many thousands of troops and planes were poured into a theatre that no longer had any hope of success (and materially affected the airlift to Staingrad as well). None of this was Rommels doing, but he did the best that he could, and managed to delay the inevitable for a long time. This is hardly the work of an infereior general.

Your references to medenine as a manouver battle are just plain wrong, and a suggestion that the Axis were somehow out-generalled just a plain misconception of the facts

 

[starling]

t.v programme on yesterday,where rommels a.d.c told of rommel having a go at an officer,in front of his men.the a.d.c. said this was simply not right.and not reading wiki or google,immsmc,50div holding either the 90th light and one pz div,at mareth,and sending the nz div,1st armd div and i believe the 8th armd bde,along with lt.gen.horrocks and acting a.v.m harry broadhurst.this was the left hook behind i believe a range of mountains.this was the first blitz attack monty had ordered horrocks to commit.several sqdrns of p40,s and hurricanes attacked with bombs and mg and cannon,along with a heavy arty barrage,which i believe allowed the 1st armd div to breach and fan out,forcing the german units to retreat from mareth and run away northward.this was a battle of manourve,ordered by monty.yours,starling.

 

[parsifal]

Medenine was NOT a mobile action by the british.

Here is an extract from the Official NZ War history

The Battle of Medenine
From the Mareth line Rommel launched his last attack in Africa. He had concentrated his two infantry divisions (90 Light and 164 Light) and the panzer divisions of the Afrika Korps (15 and 21), and 10 Panzer Division had come down from the north. In addition, he had Italian infantry formations which could hold the Mareth defences as a base. It was estimated that he could field a force of about 200 tanks.

Facing these forces were 51 (Highland) Division on the coast, then 7 Armoured Division and 2 NZ Division on the left, with 4 Light Armoured Brigade as a mobile force covering the open southern flank. Their defences were arranged as at Alamein—defence in depth with artillery and anti-tank guns deployed and tanks ready to move to pre-arranged positions when the direction of the attack became clear. The attack was expected as early as 3 March, but it did not come until 6 March and was directed towards the high ground north of the main road between Medenine and Mareth. The area round Medenine is mainly flat, the town itself being slightly elevated with a dip to the north and west. There were infantry and tank clashes, but all along the front as far as Eighth Army was concerned it was fundamentally an artillery battle, and once again the defensive power of an anti-tank gunline, supported by massed artillery, was demonstrated. By the end of the day the enemy had nothing to show for his costly offensive except many dead and wounded and over fifty knocked-out tanks counted on the battlefield. Rommel accepted the reverse, and during the night withdrew his battered forces to the Mareth defences. He is reported to have stated after the battle: 'This is the beginning of the end in Tunisia for the Axis Forces.'

By 9th march Rommel had left North Africa, for good as it turns out, due to health reasons

 

[Njaco]

I would read the history again, starling.

Operation Lightfoot (2d El Alamein) did not go exactly as planned by Monty.

The first day 51st Highland barely advanced, 1st SA was stopped with heavy casualties, and the minefields were barely crossed. 1st Armoured only had one gap to go thru and traffic was clogged.

Second day 10th Armoured was fully exposed to AT gunners on Miteirya Ridge and much of the rest of Monty's tanks were stuck in traffic and minefields.

Third day 10th Armoured was being hammered so badly that Major General Gatehouse ordered his tanks back to Miteirya Ridge. The Italians made the 7th Armoured and 50th Div suffer for what little they gained. Monty decided to cancel attacks by the 2d NZ Div and 10th Armoured. Monty then decided to modify 'Lightfoot' with a new operation, 'Supercharge' and concentrated his attacks along the coast (shades of Rommel?) and eventually broke free. But even then, it was difficult. The 9th Armoured brigade was almost decimated in this new attack, losing 75 out of 94 tanks!

The point being that with overwhelming numbers of men and guns, ample fuel, superiority of the air and a willingness to sacrifice and be flexible, anybody can win. What made Monty such a force was getting the troops ready in the weeks before El Alamein.

Rommel didn't join the battle until the 3d day. All respects to Monty, if Rommel had the same forces and reserves as Monty I wonder what the outcome would have been.

and to support Parsifal, this is what I posted for 6 March

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/day-war-europe-65-years-ago-6116-49.html

NORTH AFRICA: Feldmarschall Rommel, with a mixed German / Italian force, launched an expected attack on the Mareth Line near Medenine, Tunisia. There were 4 thrusts by Rommel toward Medenine, which were repulsed by the Britsh Eighth Army. It was concieved as the second phase of a counter-attack which began with the Battle of Kasserine Pass last month.
....The Desert Fox could not even surprise the Allies for they had broken his coded messages and seen his tanks on the move. Allied strengths had quadrupled in the last 10 days, and this gave Eighth Army a decisive strength on the battlefield. Rommel had no more than 160 tanks against his enemy's 400 and with 3 fighters wings operating from forward airfields, the Allies had air superiority. 35 Allied planes strafed and bombed installations in the Mareth Line as Rommel's sttack was defeated.
....When the attack began, Montgomery was waiting in well-sited defensive positions. The British had time to camuouflage a line of AA guns across Rommel's path. Cool British gunners held their fire until the panzers were within close range of the hidden guns, then loosed a holocaust of armour-piercing shells. The Germans were soon pinned down and subjected to a withering assault from tanks and the air. The British used only one squadron of tanks at Medenine, but their AA guns cost Rommel 52 of his panzers. Rommel renewed the attack in the afternoon and, once again, failed to make any headway against the thick defenses. By the end of the day Rommel had less than 100 tanks left. The British had blunted the attack and in doing so may have found the tactic that could stop the panzers: massed artillery and AA fire combined with air raids.

 

[parsifal]

Another small point is that thje operational plan for Medenine was not even Rommels, it was the result of planning by the italian general Messe, with Rommel essentially acquiescing so as to allow troops under his (Rommels) command to participate. There was also some contribution to the plan by Ziegler. Rommel did endorse the plan, so he bears some responsibility, despite his being quite ill at the time. But neither Messe (who was a good defensive general) nor Rommel had any great expectations about the results of this initiative. The entire Panzer Corps was more than 67% understrength at this time, attacking with a combined tank strength of just 141 tanks and air support not exceeding 80 aircraft.

The british deployed a full corps strength to repel this, consisting of 2 NZ, two other Infantry Brigades (directly involved, , and two armoured brigadesalong a front of just 43000 yards, at right angles to the known MLA of Rommels forces. Supporting the Infantry in this defensive line were 810 medium and field artillery pieces, including considerable numbers of the new 17 pdr AT guns

Montgomery issued orders that expressly forbade the Allies from pursuing the retreating Germans after the battle, despite his overwhelming numerical superiority.

Most of this material is from very general references, including "history Of the Second World War" and Eddie Bauers "History Of WWII"

 

[Njaco]

Most of this material is from very general references, including "history Of the Second World War" and Eddie Bauers "History Of WWII"

same here, from

"War in Europe: North African Struggle" by Edwin P. Hoyt
"World War II Battle Plans" by Stephen Badsey
"21st Panzer Division: Rommel's Afrika Korps Spearhead" by Chris Ellis
"Campaigns of WWII: Day by Day" by Chris Bishop Chris Mc Nab

Starling, if you can, grab one or two of these books and check them out.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Very impressive.

Im not saying that Rommel was not without fault. What I really object to is mindless criticism not based on any subjective analysis at all. The man deserves better respect than thet, just the same as Monty does for his exploites as well.

I often have wondered what would have happened if Rommel had survived the war. What would have been the effect of his commentary to the post war histories???

I completely agree. Rommel was not perfect as some people like to believe, but I do agree with you on the respect issue.

I too often wonder what would have happened. I would like to think he would have helped rebuild Germany. He was loved by the people, so he might have been able to do a lot of good.

He probably would have made some trouble for the post-war balance in East Germany. He seems to be the kind to speak his mind regardless of the consequences.

I wonder if he would have been involved in an "unfortunate accident" if he was in East Germany? Like Patton.....

He would not have been in East Germany. He was from near Ulm which is near Stuttgart. His son became mayor of Stuttgart from 1974 to 1996. All in West Germany.

Patton was not in East Geramny either. Patton was in an accident near Neckarstadt and died in Heidelberg. Both in West Germany.

Interesting tidbit Pattons son George Patton IV and Rommels son Manfred Rommel were both born on the same day, December 24th. George Patton IV was in command of the 2nd Armored Division in Stuttgart at the same time that Manfred Rommel was the mayor of Stuttgart.

Both George Patton IV and Manfred Rommel became very very good friends during that time and did a lot for German/American relations.

 

[Njaco]

Thanks, Adler, did not know that. That is eerie.