Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained)

GrauGeist · Jul 30, 2021

Greg LITERALLY climbed in there and measured it.
This means PHYSICALLY measured the ACTUAL genuine aircraft.

He didn't hold up "drawings" and compare the two and guess.

He was actually INSIDE the engine compartment to make the comparison.

How in the hell can anyone be so jaded as to dispute physical contact versus "drawings"?

When Greg posted the measurements and description of the engine bay interior from an ACTUAL aircraft he was literally inside of - you should have appreciated his effort and thanked him for going to the trouble and then perhaps felt a little stupid for arguing over a wrong point, while learning from the information.

But no, we can't have that now, can we?
Nope, we're going to beat the dead horse's carcass until it's dust and then stomp the dirt where the carcass was just for good measure...

FLYBOYJ · Jul 30, 2021

Shortround6 said:
So the "expert" would have us believe that in all that time that they were working on the XP-39E and the P-63 projects (nearly two years just for the P-63 project) NOBODY walked over to a regular P-39 with a tape measure, spent a few minutes and called out across the hanger "hey guys, the new engine will fit in the old airplane!"

As they were being produced side-by-side!

pbehn · Jul 30, 2021

FLYBOYJ said:
As they were being produced side-by-side!
View attachment 634787

If only someone had walked across those lines and had a bit of a chat the whole world would have been different, maybe could have had colour TV too?

fubar57 · Jul 30, 2021

GrauGeist said:
Greg LITERALLY climbed in there and measured it.
This means PHYSICALLY measured the ACTUAL genuine aircraft.

He didn't hold up "drawings" and compare the two and guess.

He was actually INSIDE the engine compartment to make the comparison.

How in the hell can anyone be so jaded as to dispute physical contact versus "drawings"?

When Greg posted the measurements and description of the engine bay interior from an ACTUAL aircraft he was literally inside of - you should have appreciated his effort and thanked him for going to the trouble and then perhaps felt a little stupid for arguing over a wrong point, while learning from the information.

But no, we can't have that now, can we?
Nope, we're going to beat the dead horse's carcass until it's dust and then stomp the dirt where the carcass was just for good measure...

33k in the air · Jul 30, 2021

GrauGeist said:
Nope, we're going to beat the dead horse's carcass until it's dust and then stomp the dirt where the carcass was just for good measure...

Yeah, well, maybe that horse had it coming.

It was always a mean, cantankerous beast!

Glider · Jul 30, 2021

Thumpalumpacus said:
@P-39 Expert[/USER]'s problem seems to be that he's making so many questionable claims and facing pushback from so many different angles that he's tying himself into knots trying to 1) answer an objection and 2) do so in such a manner that he doesn't undercut another answer of his to another objection.

My father was a man of many phrases and the one that sticks with this part of your posting is

'Oh what a tangled web we weave, when we practice too deceive'.

GregP · Jul 30, 2021

P-39 Expert said:
Same size Greg. Same length, same width.

OK, I give.

Exactly WHAT is the same size and width that I didn't already fully describe?

I already said that the engine compartment where the block goes is the same size. It's the compartment behind the engine bay, where the aux stage will go that is NOT the same size.

No wonder you can't read a chart since you can't read a clearly-worded reply and answer back without ambiguity.

FLYBOYJ · Jul 30, 2021

GregP said:
No wonder you can't read a chart since you can't read a clearly-worded reply and answer back without ambiguity.

Classic!

GregP · Jul 30, 2021

Well, anyone who wants to come visit Chino, let me know via PM.

You can come to two different museums with me and measure until your heart is content. I'll even arrange for you to sit in the P-63 cockpit. We can also go to an Allison engine overaul shop and look at (and weigh, if we want to) an aux-stage supercharger and a remote nose case. We'll burn a steak and have a few beers.

Well, almost anyone ... I reserve the right to refuse hospitality, depending on the degree of Groundhoggery exhibited. I think a large majority would qualify for some friendly banter as we go check out this engine swap proposition and arrive at a joint conclusion to be posted in here.

We already KNOW how long a V-1710-93 Allison is - slightly over 215.5 inches. We already know how long a V-1710-35 Allison is - 194 inches. The length includes the nosecase. The difference in length is 21.5 inches unless my subtraction is incorrect. That length, sticks back into the rear compartment. But, hey, we can go verify that anytime and watch a few warbirds fly in the process.

pbehn · Jul 30, 2021

GregP said:
OK, I give.

Exactly WHAT is the same size and width that I didn't already fully describe?

I already said that the engine compartment where the block goes is the same size. It's the compartment behind the engine bay, where the aux stage will go that is NOT the same size.

No wonder you can't read a chart since you can't read a clearly-worded reply and answer back without ambiguity.

Facts have never had any influence on this discussion, that's proper groundhoggery.

PAT303 · Jul 30, 2021

The definition of stupid is a person who has the inability to learn in the face of overwhelming facts.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jul 30, 2021

While I think we all share the same sentiments, we all need to refrain from personal attacks and insults.

BiffF15 · Jul 30, 2021

GregP said:
Well, anyone who wants to come visit Chino, let me know via PM.

You can come to two different museums with me and measure until your heart is content. I'll even arrange for you to sit in the P-63 cockpit. We can also go to an Allison engine overaul shop and look at (and weigh, if we want to) an aux-stage supercharger and a remote nose case. We'll burn a steak and have a few beers.

Well, almost anyone ... I reserve the right to refuse hospitality, depending on the degree of Groundhoggery exhibited. I think a large majority would qualify for some friendly banter as we go check out this engine swap proposition and arrive at a joint conclusion to be posted in here.

We already KNOW how long a V-1710-93 Allison is - slightly over 215.5 inches. We already know how long a V-1710-35 Allison is - 194 inches. The length includes the nosecase. The difference in length is 21.5 inches unless my subtraction is incorrect. That length, sticks back into the rear compartment. But, hey, we can go verify that anytime and watch a few warbirds fly in the process.

I'll pick up the steaks!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jul 30, 2021

BiffF15 said:
I'll pick up the steaks!

And I'm now officially joining...

FLYBOYJ · Jul 30, 2021

GregP said:
Well, anyone who wants to come visit Chino, let me know via PM.

You can come to two different museums with me and measure until your heart is content. I'll even arrange for you to sit in the P-63 cockpit. We can also go to an Allison engine overaul shop and look at (and weigh, if we want to) an aux-stage supercharger and a remote nose case. We'll burn a steak and have a few beers.

Well, almost anyone ... I reserve the right to refuse hospitality, depending on the degree of Groundhoggery exhibited. I think a large majority would qualify for some friendly banter as we go check out this engine swap proposition and arrive at a joint conclusion to be posted in here.

We already KNOW how long a V-1710-93 Allison is - slightly over 215.5 inches. We already know how long a V-1710-35 Allison is - 194 inches. The length includes the nosecase. The difference in length is 21.5 inches unless my subtraction is incorrect. That length, sticks back into the rear compartment. But, hey, we can go verify that anytime and watch a few warbirds fly in the process.

I hoping to take you up on that! As we put the Covid crap behind us and as my girls are getting older, I'm hoping to hit my old haunts as a tourist/ spectator rather than an active participant. Chino is one of my targets!

Peter Gunn · Jul 30, 2021

P-39 Expert said:
For the umpteenth time, the engine (V1710-93) was in production from April 1943 but the first P-63 airframe wasn't completed until October. Six months in mid 1943 was wasted when the engine could have been installed in a P-39.

And for the umpteenth time...

No, you're wrong.

GregP · Jul 30, 2021

BiffF15 said:
I'll pick up the steaks!

Any time, Bifff15 and DerAdler, anytime. It would be fun anyway. Lots of great aircraft to see, good food, good company, a few beers.

There's no downside unless the V-1710-95 actually fits, that is. Then, we be fools.

Sometimes I crack myself up.

XBe02Drvr · Jul 31, 2021

GregP said:
Well, almost anyone ... I reserve the right to refuse hospitality, depending on the degree of Groundhoggery exhibited.

Damn! I had my bags mostly packed before I read this line. Ah heck, y'all have fun out there! Gotta go feed the hogs.

wuzak · Jul 31, 2021

462 posts more to get to Page #200

ThomasP · Jul 31, 2021

Does this support anyone's view?
These photos are of the same P-63 airframe under assembly, taken at the Bell factory in Wheatfield NY.

Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained)

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