Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained) (6 Viewers)

fubar57 · Aug 13, 2021

Speaking of stripping off armour, I found this here. The P-39 Airacobra - Warfare History Network

"Nothing could touch a P-39 used below 15,000-feet" contended American Air Ace Lt. Col. William A. Shomo who flew P-39s, P-40s, F-6Ds, and a P-51D in WWII. He wouldn't have hesitated to have even taken on the vaunted P-38 at lower altitudes because of the extreme maneuverability of the "Flying Cannon." And it could tangle successfully with a Japanese Zero, he argued, if the American pilot kept his airspeed at 300 miles per hour or better so the enemy "couldn't turn inside you."

The Americans in the field experimented with the aircraft throughout the war to continually gain an edge and some additional speed, eventually stripping off a chunk of belly armor under the seat that weighed some 750 pounds. With those modifications, the P-39 could "fly like a bumble bee," asserted Shomo. He and his men especially liked the stinging power of the plane's 37mm cannon that could, if necessary, fire off some 30 rounds in 12 seconds. The hefty warhead had a definite arching trajectory, but one could eventually learn to "drop the shell right into someone's shirt pocket as he walked along the beach," said the ace."

pbehn · Aug 13, 2021

Did they produce shells that were fused to explode in shirt pockets?

GrauGeist · Aug 13, 2021

pbehn said:
Did they produce shells that were fused to explode in shirt pockets?

Shirt pockets, perhaps.
Watch pockets, on the otherhand, is more complicated.

FLYBOYJ · Aug 13, 2021

fubar57 said:
Speaking of stripping off armour, I found this here. The P-39 Airacobra - Warfare History Network

"Nothing could touch a P-39 used below 15,000-feet" contended American Air Ace Lt. Col. William A. Shomo who flew P-39s, P-40s, F-6Ds, and a P-51D in WWII. He wouldn't have hesitated to have even taken on the vaunted P-38 at lower altitudes because of the extreme maneuverability of the "Flying Cannon." And it could tangle successfully with a Japanese Zero, he argued, if the American pilot kept his airspeed at 300 miles per hour or better so the enemy "couldn't turn inside you."

The Americans in the field experimented with the aircraft throughout the war to continually gain an edge and some additional speed, eventually stripping off a chunk of belly armor under the seat that weighed some 750 pounds. With those modifications, the P-39 could "fly like a bumble bee," asserted Shomo. He and his men especially liked the stinging power of the plane's 37mm cannon that could, if necessary, fire off some 30 rounds in 12 seconds. The hefty warhead had a definite arching trajectory, but one could eventually learn to "drop the shell right into someone's shirt pocket as he walked along the beach," said the ace."

This sounds like the cornerstone of "The Expert's" argument, but the article doesn't mention that Shomo became an ace flying an F-6D

fubar57 · Aug 13, 2021

Maybe the Japanese wore these

33k in the air · Aug 13, 2021

fubar57 said:
And it could tangle successfully with a Japanese Zero, he argued, if the American pilot kept his airspeed at 300 miles per hour or better so the enemy "couldn't turn inside you."

The same could be said for other American fighters as well, since testing of the Zero recovered from the Aleutians revealed its controls became stiff at speeds over 300 mph.

Thumpalumpacus · Aug 13, 2021

GregP said:
I thought it had 2 USB ports, a cupholder, and a filing cabinet drawer behind the pilot seat for the weight and balance documents. A CD player was a field-installed luxury. Most had RainX wipes in a glove box, too.

Is it true that the throttle was the pedal on the far right?

fubar57 · Aug 13, 2021

Thumpalumpacus said:
Is it true that the throttle was the pedal on the far right?

Yes and in place of the regular throttle quadrant was a manual 4-speed stick shift; another of those pesky British requirements that played havoc to U.S. aviators when the aircraft were returned

Thumpalumpacus · Aug 13, 2021

fubar57 said:
Yes and in place of the regular throttle quadrant was a manual 4-speed stick shift; another of those pesky British requirements that played havoc to U.S. aviators when the aircraft were returned

Dude, you gotta like a stick-shift airplane, except for yawing left when you engage the clutch.

pbehn · Aug 13, 2021

Early Spitfires used the "stick shift" to raise and lower the wheels. It resulted in them waddling up into the sky like a troop of drunken ducks.

GregP · Aug 13, 2021

I have also read Shomo's account of liking the P-39. It didn't show up in the actual scores of USAAF pilots in the Pacific, though. I have read three or four accounts of loving the P-39, none of the authors of which seemed to do very well in it.

Makes me wonder, but not exactly doubt they liked the P-39. There's usually ONE in the neighborhood with a plaster lawn jockey or pink flamingos in the yard.

pbehn · Aug 13, 2021

fubar57 said:
The Americans in the field experimented with the aircraft throughout the war to continually gain an edge and some additional speed, eventually stripping off a chunk of belly armor under the seat that weighed some 750 pounds. With those modifications, the P-39 could "fly like a bumble bee," asserted Shomo. He and his men especially liked the stinging power of the plane's 37mm cannon that could, if necessary, fire off some 30 rounds in 12 seconds. The hefty warhead had a definite arching trajectory, but one could eventually learn to "drop the shell right into someone's shirt pocket as he walked along the beach," said the ace."

This is what my daughter would call a "random" argument, she has a different way of using English, it means crazy and illogical. If removing 750Lbs of armour made it a world beater who was the fool who put the 750Lbs of armour there in the first place? Reading the various variant types in Wiki, some have additional belly armour, but it is there for a reason. Obviously removing belly armour improves performance and the ones who aren't taken down by ground fire will say they had a better performing airplane.

fubar57 · Aug 13, 2021

One day I'll find the book or website that had a quote from a pilot in the Pacific that said that they deliberately "accidentally" sabotaged their P-39s so that they could get newer P-38s. Not being a pilot but having slept in a Holiday Inn.....twice....I thought pilots needed additional twin engine time before they fly them. The quote, it seems to me, would be unlikely in a combat zone

Thumpalumpacus · Aug 13, 2021

The other thing is -- what fighter plane has 10% of its gross weight devoted to one single slab of armor?

pbehn · Aug 13, 2021

fubar57 said:
One day I'll find the book or website that had a quote from a pilot in the Pacific that said that they deliberately "accidentally" sabotaged their P-39s so that they could get newer P-38s. Not being a pilot but having slept in a Holiday Inn.....twice....I thought pilots needed additional twin engine time before they fly them. The quote, it seems to me, would be unlikely in a combat zone

I just read recently on here that pilots in N Africa suffered regardless of experience trying to transition from Hurricanes to P-40s while in combat. The idea that you can just jump out of a P-39 and into a P-38 and be more effective is just silly.

I havnt slept in a Holiday Inn, but I did stay at the Skean Dhu at Aberdeen airport which qualifies me for all helicopter and light aircraft operations.

GrauGeist · Aug 13, 2021

I slept overnight at the Leonardo DaVinci airport on a bench upstairs by the vending machines, so let me weigh in

I beleive the P-39 pilots transitioning to the P-38 would have been familiarized with an advanced twin trainer where possible, even if it was the local hack in forward areas.
I really wish my Uncle Jimmy were still with us, as he went from a P-36 to a P-39 and then to a P-38 (which he flew for the duration) and he'd have been able to provide details of the process.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Aug 13, 2021

So what does overnighting on the floor of Laguardia qualify me as?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Aug 13, 2021

GregP how far is the museum from Palmdale?

Greg Boeser · Aug 13, 2021

I doubt it. Probably just a bit of ground school, cockpit familiarization and then let 'em at it.
According to John Stanaway in Attack and Conquer, the 8th Fighter Group in World War II, the 80th Fighter Squadron, the first squadron in the group to transition to the P-38, and third overall in NG, was pulled from the frontline in late January, 1943 spent about two months reorganizing and transitioning, before returning to combat at the end of March. Sadly, he does not detail the training involved.

FLYBOYJ · Aug 13, 2021

Greg Boeser said:
I doubt it. Probably just a bit of ground school, cockpit familiarization and then let 'em at it.
According to John Stanaway in Attack and Conquer, the 8th Fighter Group in World War II, the 80th Fighter Squadron, the first squadron in the group to transition to the P-38, and third overall in NG, was pulled from the frontline in late January, 1943 spent about two months reorganizing and transitioning, before returning to combat at the end of March. Sadly, he does not detail the training involved.

Read "Peter Three Eight" by Stanaway, he goes into early P-38 ops in NG in detail

Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained) (6 Viewers)

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