You never clarified that you know the difference between UK and Russia, now could you clarify that you understand B-17 and B-24s were intercepted by GERMAN not allied fighters? The Battle of Britain took place at up to and slightly over 30,000ft. The normal altitude for UK offensive operations with bombers was 15,000 ft. The coast of France and Belgium was a picket line of flak, what are you going to use you P-39s for?
Groundhog Thread Part Deux - P-39 Fantasy and Fetish - The Never Ending Story (Mods take no responsibility for head against wall injuries sustained)
- Thread starter greybeard
- Start date
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P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
The P-400 was produced from July 1941. The Spitfire V had 120rds of belt fed ammunition by then, the P-38E had 150rds from October '41 and the P-51(no suffix) had four with 120rds from July '42 (AHT). First real combat for the P-39/400 was April '42.
Trying to supply three different ammo types was insane. Especially when the .30s had an effective range of only 200yds (AHT). And the AAF really had to supply FOUR different ammo types, since P-400s and P-39D-1s with 20mm cannons were often mixed in with the 37mm types. Double insane. Just standardize on the 20mm and 50cal like the P-38. Hindsight.
But Bell hadnt supplied any aircraft by then had they? So no one had any chance to work on it had they? When they did get the aircraft they were too busy working on other things, werent they? The first real combat of the P-39 was as you say, and marginally before the first real combat of the Spitfire IX and the Mustang MkI. You cannot standardise on a weapon that doesnt work, just because it worked later.
Clayton Magnet
Staff Sergeant
- 868
- Feb 16, 2013
If we are revising history with hindsight, then scrap the 50cal AND the P-39, and standardize on 20mm cannons and P-51's. Seems like a win-win.
Use Oerlikon FFL's until the Hispano is satisfactorily sorted out.
Everything that was available in 1942 is now available in 1939, a new game, lets go.
ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
Er . . . wait now . . . groundhogs can time travel? 
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
BoB got nowhere near 30000ft. Spitfire and 109E combat ceilings (1000fpm climb) were a little above 25000'. 110s about 21000ft. He111 ABSOLUTE ceiling was 22000ft. Nobody going near 30000ft, much less over except possibly recon missions. I cringe when I hear 30000ft in WWII.
B-17 and B-24 were intercepted by German fighters which seldom got over 26000ft. I don't really get your point, except to imply that I don't know the difference between UK and Russia. The UK drinks whiskey and Russians drink vodka. Got it. Thanks.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
P-39 vs. Fokker D-7?Er . . . wait now . . . groundhogs can time travel?
buffnut453
Captain
Then feel free to cringe away...unless you think Flt Lt Eric Thomas was lying in his combat report for 9 October 1940:
I was leading the Squadron on patrol at 30,000 feet roughly over Chatham. I followed 41 Squadron down to 28,000 feet and then saw about 5 Me.109's directly above at 29,000 feet. I climbed up into them and they made for a layer of cirrus, through which I followed them. I increased revs. to 3000 and gradually outclimbed them and gave a 4 seconds burst into the belly of one enemy aircraft.
How on earth did he get his Spitfire to 30,000ft if the aircraft had a service ceiling of "a little above 25000'?
Page 345 of Bungay's The Most Dangerous Enemy QUOTE "Intercepting the Jabos and their escorts which flew in at over 30,000ft was causing Park some problems", Lots of your posts make me cringe, now do you agree that the UK and Russia are not the same place, and that it was German planes not P-39s that would intercept B-17s and B24s, every baby step is progress.
By the time your favoured P-39 was introduced the RAF had intercepted a German recon plane carrying bombs at 42,000ft August 1942.
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buffnut453
Captain
Or John Gillespie Magee, describing how he came up with that brilliant poem "High Flight":
"I am enclosing a verse I wrote the other day. It started at 30,000 feet, and was finished soon after I landed. I thought it might interest you."
"I am enclosing a verse I wrote the other day. It started at 30,000 feet, and was finished soon after I landed. I thought it might interest you."
There were two issues, Chain Home became increasingly unreliable at those altitudes, and it was impossible to tell if a Bf109 was a "jabo" or just a fighter unless you had a plane there. Spitfires could cruise at 27,000ft, Bf109s without bombs could and did go over 30,000ft so they increasingly just looked at each other, unless there was a Bf109 with a bomb. (same page as previous, I hope no one cringes).
That is definitely a winner.
Glider
Captain
He lightened it and put in a bigger engine, simple really
Is there any info on gearbox armour?
Glider
Captain
No but I think they took out the IFF and moved the radio
P-39 Expert
Non-Expert
I just have a hard time believing those accounts. With the altitude statistics of the day. A FW190 of 1943 (three years after the BoB) had a combat ceiling (climb 1000fpm) of 8000meters (26400ft). And you're telling me Spitfire I and 109E in 1940 routinely got over 30000ft? The LW bombers came in well under 20000ft. Why in the world would anyone try to get to 30000ft? Like the famous Darwin Australia raids that reportedly came in at 30000ft, none of the aircraft involved had combat ceilings (or for the bombers even service ceilings) even close to that.
Now maybe once in a blue moon, but routinely why would any of the fighters fly higher than even 5000ft above the bombers? It was possible but highly improbable especially on a routine basis. These were personal accounts, amounting to heresay. Maybe they read their instruments incorrectly, or they were embellishing their story. I don't know. But the equipment involved just wouldn't do that. I cringe when I hear 30000ft in WWII, unless they were escorting B-17/24s and then they were still well under 30000ft. Just my opinion.
buffnut453
Captain
Now,now….let's not have the truth getting in the way of an expressed opinion.
The Spitfire Mk VI
Whatever your "combat ceiling" of 1,000ft/min or other was stated as, if you are sent to intercept something you dont radio back, "this is above my rated service ceiling", the two sides were testing each other out and at 30,000ft were hanging on their wings, that's why they frequently just looked at each other. I really dont care what you have a hard time with any more, it is stated in historical records, pilots accounts and respected books on the topic, you can cringe all you like, you are WRONG.
