Rustybugs
Banned
double post
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Group Build Clarification - needed for the future.
- Thread starter Airframes
- Start date
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meatloaf109
1st Lieutenant
Well, I, for one, plan on being around.
Where I live is 90 miles from the nearest hobby store so advance planning is a fact for me. The current list as accepted is what I have bought kits and paint for, not just the two running now, but for the four after that. With any luck by that time I will have sold a few more pieces of furniture and will be able to go buy kits for the G.B.'s after that.
Where I live is 90 miles from the nearest hobby store so advance planning is a fact for me. The current list as accepted is what I have bought kits and paint for, not just the two running now, but for the four after that. With any luck by that time I will have sold a few more pieces of furniture and will be able to go buy kits for the G.B.'s after that.
tigerdriver
Staff Sergeant
I think the planning is part of the fun
Maybe the less mainstream GBs like wrecked, or super detailing etc could be run on the side like the current Dora one,
Maybe the less mainstream GBs like wrecked, or super detailing etc could be run on the side like the current Dora one,
T Bolt
Colonel
For what it's worth, I like having the group builds laid out far in advanced, being able to plan out ahead and look forward to future GBs. In fact I have a spreadsheet listing all the future group builds and the kits from my stash that qualify for each Vic has put in a lot of his time setting up these builds and I think it unreasonable to ask him or someone else to go through that kind of work, although on a smaller scale, for every group build. I am very grateful to him and the other judges who put so much of their time in to run these GBs. I know I would not have that kind of time to spare.
Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with including judging as part of the group builds. It's not as though there's any prize involved, it's just for fun and adds a little more fun and excitement to it. I always look forward to seeing the members choice poll come out after a build, and the final judging results in the 3 categories.
I do think there should more organized discussion of the parameters of a build well in advance of the start to make sure everyone is on the same page. Maybe open up the new sections for the particular GBs, two or three in advance, each with a thread for discussion and specific rules for that build. Other than that I think things are fine the way they are now.
Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with including judging as part of the group builds. It's not as though there's any prize involved, it's just for fun and adds a little more fun and excitement to it. I always look forward to seeing the members choice poll come out after a build, and the final judging results in the 3 categories.
I do think there should more organized discussion of the parameters of a build well in advance of the start to make sure everyone is on the same page. Maybe open up the new sections for the particular GBs, two or three in advance, each with a thread for discussion and specific rules for that build. Other than that I think things are fine the way they are now.
N4521U
Colonel
Can't imagine trying to come up with the next two GB's after two GB's. I personally couldn't be bothered every second build debating for the next two. Look what it took to come up with the list we have. The vote tally has been taken, and agreed upon for the existing list.
As it is we all have the choice of scale. I personally build two and four engined planes in 72nd and singles in 48th by choice. My first GB entry was in 1/72 and found it difficult for my meat hook mits to work in that scale. We work in the scale we are comfortable with. We all have the choice of detailing or not. If you look back, it doesn't make a bit of difference in the final vote. Bad detailing is not going to get a vote, just because there is detailing done. None of my scratch building has been a Members Choice, and I am not compelled to complain. I personally enjoy the effort.
I've never entered anything in an outside contest. If I did, it would be something I have done here where I get help and encouragement.
I think this forum has got it all right. And I think this is the reason we have so many newcomers, it's why I joined. And I don't think any more rules are going to add anything to anything.
I think it may scare people off. We complain about Gov'ts and regulations and rules, and now it's suggested to do the same thing in here. Let's keep it simple, just like it is!
***I think we did just that on GB17, a question thread, and a what are you thinking thread and these work a treat.
As it is we all have the choice of scale. I personally build two and four engined planes in 72nd and singles in 48th by choice. My first GB entry was in 1/72 and found it difficult for my meat hook mits to work in that scale. We work in the scale we are comfortable with. We all have the choice of detailing or not. If you look back, it doesn't make a bit of difference in the final vote. Bad detailing is not going to get a vote, just because there is detailing done. None of my scratch building has been a Members Choice, and I am not compelled to complain. I personally enjoy the effort.
I've never entered anything in an outside contest. If I did, it would be something I have done here where I get help and encouragement.
I think this forum has got it all right. And I think this is the reason we have so many newcomers, it's why I joined. And I don't think any more rules are going to add anything to anything.
I think it may scare people off. We complain about Gov'ts and regulations and rules, and now it's suggested to do the same thing in here. Let's keep it simple, just like it is!
***I think we did just that on GB17, a question thread, and a what are you thinking thread and these work a treat.
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Rustybugs
Banned
It's interesting.. you state that you want new folks to join in and how to increase the participation in forums and builds, but nobody wants any changes. "Oh I think it's a great idea, just don't change anything. I don't want anything to upset the status quo." So everyone's happy to have the same 8 to 12 folks doing the all builds all of the time? Starting to sound like a good ol' boys club isn't it?
You welcome new folks with open arms and have helped many that have questions and tips. I mean really, some of you need a 6 year lead on builds?? It sounds like you don't want any changes to upset the cart, that you folks that have been here the longest have established. Then you wonder why very few new people stay around.
Now before you start to chew my head off for bringing up the subject, think about it. What has been new, how many new folks have hung around for more than a few months, check it out, there is probably around 30 folks that contribute to the modeling forum on a regular basis, of that maybe half do any of the builds. Some may belong to other forums and modeling places, I don't know. So they split their time and builds with this forum.
Ok, let the flames begin
You welcome new folks with open arms and have helped many that have questions and tips. I mean really, some of you need a 6 year lead on builds?? It sounds like you don't want any changes to upset the cart, that you folks that have been here the longest have established. Then you wonder why very few new people stay around.
Now before you start to chew my head off for bringing up the subject, think about it. What has been new, how many new folks have hung around for more than a few months, check it out, there is probably around 30 folks that contribute to the modeling forum on a regular basis, of that maybe half do any of the builds. Some may belong to other forums and modeling places, I don't know. So they split their time and builds with this forum.
Ok, let the flames begin
N4521U
Colonel
I've seen the light............. we need...
OOB 1,2,3.
With scratch building 1,2,3.
With PE only 1,2,3.
Weathered 1,2,3.
Simple Dio 1,2,3.
Real detailed dio 1,2,3.
AND a Members choice in each one!
And, maybe we should be able to start any time we like as long as it's finished on the closing date? And prize money, could just be credit at a LHS. I'll put in 2 cents, oh, I just did.
OOB 1,2,3.
With scratch building 1,2,3.
With PE only 1,2,3.
Weathered 1,2,3.
Simple Dio 1,2,3.
Real detailed dio 1,2,3.
AND a Members choice in each one!
And, maybe we should be able to start any time we like as long as it's finished on the closing date? And prize money, could just be credit at a LHS. I'll put in 2 cents, oh, I just did.
meatloaf109
1st Lieutenant
No flames.
The builds are open to anyone that wants to build an airplane. Can't force people to join. If someone wants to build something other than what is in the current G.B., then there are sections for that, you can show even ships and cars to name but two.
And, yes, as stated above, I do need to plan ahead. On my last trip to the hobby store I brought a list of the upcoming G.B.'s, so if I saw something that would work out, I could get it. Kits go out of production, and I might end up having the last remaining Lockheed Electra in 1/48 for the G.B.#69, "Planes flown by women". (Suggestion to the judges)
The builds are open to anyone that wants to build an airplane. Can't force people to join. If someone wants to build something other than what is in the current G.B., then there are sections for that, you can show even ships and cars to name but two.
And, yes, as stated above, I do need to plan ahead. On my last trip to the hobby store I brought a list of the upcoming G.B.'s, so if I saw something that would work out, I could get it. Kits go out of production, and I might end up having the last remaining Lockheed Electra in 1/48 for the G.B.#69, "Planes flown by women". (Suggestion to the judges)
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meatloaf109
1st Lieutenant
I want credit at the local A.B.C. store. I don't have a local Hobby store!
ccheese
Member In Perpetuity
OK, Lads.... let's calm down. I had planned to stay out of this thread, to just sit and watch. But now I have to put in my two pfennigs worth. First off, I like the judging the way it is. I never expect to "win" a GB, but I do enjoy the kind words some offer. To have someone tell me, "You done good, Pilgrim", just makes my day. So I don't think the present system of judges or judging need to be changed.
I've always thought split GB's were a bad idea. It leaves too much "open for discussion". I see that coming with the "Nose Art GB". That said, I think the GB's as they are, and I mean planned ahead, well beyond my stay on earth, is OK. Some people need to get their stuff together, so to speak, and that takes planning.
As far as limiting a GB to a particular scale, NO.... I don't agree with that. Some people would have a real problem if a GB were limited to 1:72. Me, for one, because I doubt there is a balsa/tissue model out that that's 1:72. Or make a diorama. Again, No. You wanna make a diorama ? Good, just put it in the Start to Finish Build section. Members will look in there and make comments. Some, that have been in there, are quite good.
Can you just picture GB#64, "A Shot Up GB" ? Anything with bullet holes will qualify. Again, NO. I think this would run people out, and I'd be the first to go.
Putting limits on a GB (other than the rules/requirements of the GB) would not serve any worthwhile purpose. Those that enter a GB should be able to do what they wish and are capable of, to satisfy the requirement of the GB. I love to see some of the efforts that go into detailing a cockpit. I stand in awe at some of the accomplishments that I have seen expressed in the GB's.
As far as experience (or lack thereof), everyone knows that some member's capabilities over-shadow others. Some builders go way out of their way to make a model as near perfect as possible. We all recognize the talents of a few of the members, as, as I like to put it, "museum quality". Others' like myself, are still in a learning mode. These individuals should not be looked down upon, because their work is awe inspiring.
In a word, Gentlemen, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" !
Charles
I've always thought split GB's were a bad idea. It leaves too much "open for discussion". I see that coming with the "Nose Art GB". That said, I think the GB's as they are, and I mean planned ahead, well beyond my stay on earth, is OK. Some people need to get their stuff together, so to speak, and that takes planning.
As far as limiting a GB to a particular scale, NO.... I don't agree with that. Some people would have a real problem if a GB were limited to 1:72. Me, for one, because I doubt there is a balsa/tissue model out that that's 1:72. Or make a diorama. Again, No. You wanna make a diorama ? Good, just put it in the Start to Finish Build section. Members will look in there and make comments. Some, that have been in there, are quite good.
Can you just picture GB#64, "A Shot Up GB" ? Anything with bullet holes will qualify. Again, NO. I think this would run people out, and I'd be the first to go.
Putting limits on a GB (other than the rules/requirements of the GB) would not serve any worthwhile purpose. Those that enter a GB should be able to do what they wish and are capable of, to satisfy the requirement of the GB. I love to see some of the efforts that go into detailing a cockpit. I stand in awe at some of the accomplishments that I have seen expressed in the GB's.
As far as experience (or lack thereof), everyone knows that some member's capabilities over-shadow others. Some builders go way out of their way to make a model as near perfect as possible. We all recognize the talents of a few of the members, as, as I like to put it, "museum quality". Others' like myself, are still in a learning mode. These individuals should not be looked down upon, because their work is awe inspiring.
In a word, Gentlemen, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" !
Charles
T Bolt
Colonel
If some one wants to do a subject different than one of the scheduled group builds they can always drum up some interest and start an unofficial group build under the group build section. It's been done before. The Doras Galoras Unofficial GB going on now with 15 members participating making all posts in one thread -Sometimes confusing, but still a lot of fun, or the Delta Unofficial GB, not as popular with only 2 members doing individual threads, but still fun (I'm still working slowly on my F-102). So there's other ways to go, you just need to work up a little interest in the subject with a few other members.
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i personally don't want the fun taking out of these builds, the level of competition is about right as it is.
it was something i didn't want to get out of hand when we discussed the very first group build and i think the judges have enough stuff to do in their home lives with out more time being spent on these builds.
think we could also discuss the following GB's limits etc once a current build starts, giving 4 months to sort out the scope of subjects.
just my thoughts
it was something i didn't want to get out of hand when we discussed the very first group build and i think the judges have enough stuff to do in their home lives with out more time being spent on these builds.
think we could also discuss the following GB's limits etc once a current build starts, giving 4 months to sort out the scope of subjects.
just my thoughts
Here is my two cents on the subject.
I was and am supposed to be one of the judges, but have not had time. Since my return to the United States from Europe, I have been swamped with work and all sorts of things.
No flames here either. This is not a good old boys club. We welcome suggestions and ideas all the time. But here goes..
1. I don't think that having builds set out as far as they do has anything to do with people joining or not? Why would it. Why would someone go, damn they have build set up for next year already. I don't want to join that forum!
2. I don't see any reason to not have judging? Why get rid of it? It is a friendly competition with friendly judging. If anything it gives recognition. It is not meant to say that someone is better than others. Why do you think there are different levels of skill to be judged.
3. If it is not broke, why fix it. I think that everyone that is taking part in these builds, is having fun right? That is what this is all about?
If someone has a great idea, and everyone else (including the judges) like it, and wants to tweak it. Then by all means do so. I just see no need to get rid of setting them out so far and getting rid of the judging.
Now having said this. As someone who is not a big modeler (I came here years ago because of the real planes...), I have to say I admire all of your models, and all of your work. Well done to everyone. Even though I do not participate, I take a look at each and every one. I love them all. So again, keep up the great work!
I was and am supposed to be one of the judges, but have not had time. Since my return to the United States from Europe, I have been swamped with work and all sorts of things.
No flames here either. This is not a good old boys club. We welcome suggestions and ideas all the time. But here goes..
1. I don't think that having builds set out as far as they do has anything to do with people joining or not? Why would it. Why would someone go, damn they have build set up for next year already. I don't want to join that forum!
2. I don't see any reason to not have judging? Why get rid of it? It is a friendly competition with friendly judging. If anything it gives recognition. It is not meant to say that someone is better than others. Why do you think there are different levels of skill to be judged.
3. If it is not broke, why fix it. I think that everyone that is taking part in these builds, is having fun right? That is what this is all about?
If someone has a great idea, and everyone else (including the judges) like it, and wants to tweak it. Then by all means do so. I just see no need to get rid of setting them out so far and getting rid of the judging.
Now having said this. As someone who is not a big modeler (I came here years ago because of the real planes...
), I have to say I admire all of your models, and all of your work. Well done to everyone. Even though I do not participate, I take a look at each and every one. I love them all. So again, keep up the great work!
meatloaf109
1st Lieutenant
And that is precisely why I like your participation as a judge. A "not a big modeler" who came here because he likes the real planes, is exactly what is needed to look at models to see if they represent the real thing.
Just sayin'!
Just sayin'!
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Crimea_River
Marshal
Rustybugs, some great ideas you have there. I'd suggest you start an unofficial GB based on your ideas and see who will join in, as I did with my Doras Galoras GB. So much discussion and work has gone into setting up the next batch of GBs by long time participants, and especially Vic, that I'd personally be very dissapointed if we suddenly chucked all that out the window and started anew. If you were around during the process, you would know that the next selection of group builds was democratically established and considered all ideas equally. Am I worried that we're not getting more participants? HELL NO. As a judge, I think there are plenty of entries to fill my spare time, thank you very much. Having said that, I'd welcome more in a heartbeat, but not at the expense of changing the game every time a newcomer wants something different.
Oh, and I also enter my posted models in 2 local annual model shows, to answer your question.
Replace judging with members choice only? I say no. The member's choice adds another dimension to the judged results and keeps things interesting.
Let's all remember the original reason this thread was opened - to discuss how to improve the clarity of scope of the planned future builds and not to reopen the pandora's box of official GB selections.
Oh, and I also enter my posted models in 2 local annual model shows, to answer your question.
Replace judging with members choice only? I say no. The member's choice adds another dimension to the judged results and keeps things interesting.
Let's all remember the original reason this thread was opened - to discuss how to improve the clarity of scope of the planned future builds and not to reopen the pandora's box of official GB selections.
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N4521U
Colonel
Too many rules will lead to Someone declaring an infraction of them rules if one doesn't like the result! WTF would That be all about.
Then all h3ll will break lose. The result? Who would want to enter? This isn't Formula One, or Nascar!!!!!!! I for one won't want to participate under this kind of a cloud. I think it's great to see all the entries in a thread. Remember, Beginners are the Advanced builders of the future. We need to provide a place to nurture, not to discourage.
These are turning in to overhaul ideas, not suggestions to improve the system of our GB's.
The judging as it stands, to my untrained eye, is it my eye or ear.....
is the quality of the result submitted by the GB criteria.
Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced, 1,2,3.
Doesn't matter the sub category in a split build.
The Members choice is the one best liked from among them all. That's the way it is at competitions!
How much more complicated do we want it........
We need to take a bl00dy vote, and get on with building!
Then all h3ll will break lose. The result? Who would want to enter? This isn't Formula One, or Nascar!!!!!!! I for one won't want to participate under this kind of a cloud. I think it's great to see all the entries in a thread. Remember, Beginners are the Advanced builders of the future. We need to provide a place to nurture, not to discourage.
These are turning in to overhaul ideas, not suggestions to improve the system of our GB's.
The judging as it stands, to my untrained eye, is it my eye or ear.....
is the quality of the result submitted by the GB criteria.
Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced, 1,2,3.
Doesn't matter the sub category in a split build.
The Members choice is the one best liked from among them all. That's the way it is at competitions!
How much more complicated do we want it........
We need to take a bl00dy vote, and get on with building!
I unfortunately do not have the time. Between work, moderating and spending time with family...
N4521U
Colonel
Hey, no need to feel your not doing enough. As volunteers, what the blazes can we expect of you, ALL of you. I for one am appreciative of every bit that you so kindly do for us in here. This is the most active forum anyone could ever expect, with some of the most energetic people involved.
Kudos to all of you, and the members for making this such a great place to loiter.
Bill
Kudos to all of you, and the members for making this such a great place to loiter.
Bill
- Thread starter
- #39
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
I have to agree with Bill there, Chris; you, and the other 'Mods' and Admin and Horse do an excellent job, in your own spare time, and we are all extremely grateful.
So, some great feedback so far, but let me just clarify something.
During a series of fairly lengthy e-mail discussions, Rusty put forward a number of points and ideas regarding the Rules and standards of the GBs, as well as some ideas for subject matter, planning of future GBs and so on, most of which you have now all read and commented on.
As there were so many, and varied, points raised, I felt it beyond the responsibility, or any assumed 'authority' of one single person (i.e. me!) to comment or make decisions on such a variety of topics, and suggested that perhaps Rusty should put his suggestions to the members of this forum.
In this, he has my full support, as I could see, or identify, certain points and suggestions that some members may agree with, or at least have some constructive comment to add, concerning these issues.
I'm happy to see that Rusty's suggestions have been received in good spirit, and that, rather than be 'shot down in flames', explanations, preferences, and alternative suggestions have been offered by the members.
Having noticed myself, over the last year or so, that it does seem to be the same few members entering GBs, I tended to perhaps agree, at least to an extent, with some of Rusty's views, particularly those regarding the possibility of perceived 'intimidation', or a perception, by some, that all of the Modelling Sections were becoming some type of 'Old Boys Club'. However, having done a brief survey of the GBs, Modelling Section forums, and the forum in general, I have realised that, as is the norm in such an organisation, such forums are, by their very nature, somewhat transitory, with members coming and going, some being very active in all things, some in specific topics, some going away due to other commitments and returning at random intervals and so on. Within the literally thousands of members, only a few hundred are active, and out of that number, a relatively small percentage are active on a very regular basis. It is, therefore, inevitable, that in the Modelling Section, and the GBs in particular, this transcience will also be present, especially when one considers that an individual might be full of enthusiasm for a particular subject when first mooted (perhaps by that individual), but, when the time comes, other things have got in the way, or a fresh subject has caught the attention, and the initial enthusiasm has had to be 'placed on a shelf for later', as it were. I know it's happened to me often, is happening at present regarding certain subjects, and no doubt will continue to happen at odd times in the future.
It appears that the general opinion of the members is that they like, prefer (or both), things as they are, concerning the planning, running and judging of the GBs, and I am happy to go along with the majority, just as I would be happy to accept any changes promulgated by the majority.
So, now that this part has been covered, I must point out that Rusty also identified one or two other points regarding the GB Rules and organisation, that I feel do warrant attention and / or clarification, and indeed I'd already identified the same subjects myself - available time, things outside the forum, and so on, having prevented me from following up on these so far.
It is these subjects that I will be putting to the other judges over the next day or so (when I have a clearer head and more energy, after, hopefully, getting at least a few hours of pain-free, uninterrupted sleep!) , and hopefully they can be addressed and amended or corrected fairly quickly, and the results posted for all to see.
Please note that none of this is of a particularly serious nature, being more concerned with a few small details within the Rules and any guidelines posted, and should not in any way alter of affect the participation or enjoyment of the members in the current, or future GBs.
Thank you all, and particularly Rusty, for taking the time to respond to this thread.
Cheers again,
Terry of the sunken eyes, palid skin and haggard appearance!
So, some great feedback so far, but let me just clarify something.
During a series of fairly lengthy e-mail discussions, Rusty put forward a number of points and ideas regarding the Rules and standards of the GBs, as well as some ideas for subject matter, planning of future GBs and so on, most of which you have now all read and commented on.
As there were so many, and varied, points raised, I felt it beyond the responsibility, or any assumed 'authority' of one single person (i.e. me!) to comment or make decisions on such a variety of topics, and suggested that perhaps Rusty should put his suggestions to the members of this forum.
In this, he has my full support, as I could see, or identify, certain points and suggestions that some members may agree with, or at least have some constructive comment to add, concerning these issues.
I'm happy to see that Rusty's suggestions have been received in good spirit, and that, rather than be 'shot down in flames', explanations, preferences, and alternative suggestions have been offered by the members.
Having noticed myself, over the last year or so, that it does seem to be the same few members entering GBs, I tended to perhaps agree, at least to an extent, with some of Rusty's views, particularly those regarding the possibility of perceived 'intimidation', or a perception, by some, that all of the Modelling Sections were becoming some type of 'Old Boys Club'. However, having done a brief survey of the GBs, Modelling Section forums, and the forum in general, I have realised that, as is the norm in such an organisation, such forums are, by their very nature, somewhat transitory, with members coming and going, some being very active in all things, some in specific topics, some going away due to other commitments and returning at random intervals and so on. Within the literally thousands of members, only a few hundred are active, and out of that number, a relatively small percentage are active on a very regular basis. It is, therefore, inevitable, that in the Modelling Section, and the GBs in particular, this transcience will also be present, especially when one considers that an individual might be full of enthusiasm for a particular subject when first mooted (perhaps by that individual), but, when the time comes, other things have got in the way, or a fresh subject has caught the attention, and the initial enthusiasm has had to be 'placed on a shelf for later', as it were. I know it's happened to me often, is happening at present regarding certain subjects, and no doubt will continue to happen at odd times in the future.
It appears that the general opinion of the members is that they like, prefer (or both), things as they are, concerning the planning, running and judging of the GBs, and I am happy to go along with the majority, just as I would be happy to accept any changes promulgated by the majority.
So, now that this part has been covered, I must point out that Rusty also identified one or two other points regarding the GB Rules and organisation, that I feel do warrant attention and / or clarification, and indeed I'd already identified the same subjects myself - available time, things outside the forum, and so on, having prevented me from following up on these so far.
It is these subjects that I will be putting to the other judges over the next day or so (when I have a clearer head and more energy, after, hopefully, getting at least a few hours of pain-free, uninterrupted sleep!) , and hopefully they can be addressed and amended or corrected fairly quickly, and the results posted for all to see.
Please note that none of this is of a particularly serious nature, being more concerned with a few small details within the Rules and any guidelines posted, and should not in any way alter of affect the participation or enjoyment of the members in the current, or future GBs.
Thank you all, and particularly Rusty, for taking the time to respond to this thread.
Cheers again,
Terry of the sunken eyes, palid skin and haggard appearance!
meatloaf109
1st Lieutenant
I agree with Bill, Thanks for the time you put in, I know little of the duties of a Mod, but I imagine you read a lot!
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