Handguns from World Wars

Erich · Dec 13, 2005

without giving to much of my former background away, it is range and ammo supplied. The old 45 was a heavy weapon till new tech materails came out. Ever try firing the .45 full auto. wow, about broke my arm off trying to keep the thing down stright in-line, but yes it has superiror stopping ability, all the 11mm's do. personally because of my size and stature I preferred the 7.62mm, handy, quite small and that was the point..........stealth, you could hide and pull this thing out easily and at 5 yds or less range unload at your intended target. who gives a rats ass if the person is down on the face or on their back, as long as the are pure and simple dead ! The 9mm is the weapon of chopoice first starting in Europe and now the invasion the last 6-7 years it is here in the states again made of very light alloys, and that really is the name of the game, superior lightness, and optics, plus effective and terrific ammunition to stop your opponent at close range. Idealy what we wanted back in the early 70's were rounds that could tear a guys face off and I mean tear it off. We made up our own rounds and this was a prerequisite in the field.

v/r El

Soren · Dec 14, 2005

lesofprimus said:
To keep this going, I have shot several individuals with a 9mm round and they did nothing but either keep coming, slump forward or spin and drop where they were hit.... With a .45, the individual does not keep coming, he's either knocked backwards or spins and drops... I dont think I need to get anymore graphic than this....

Compared to my experience with the .45, and the experiences of my Teammates, the 9mm does not possess the same stopping power, or inflict the same damage...

BUT....... The point is, all the baddies that I've had the displeasure of firing a sidearm at, never got back up, and never had the need for a Corpseman...

But again, the .45 stops people better than a 9mm does, charts and graphs aside... Everyone I served with would agree with this statement...

The .45 stops a man better, yes, research shows this as-well, however the 9mm isnt to far behind and doesn't lack so called 'stopping power', and the fact that its better against softly armored enemy's compensates for any ground lost to the .45 in the first department. Like you Les, none of the guys I've shot at with either round has gotten back up again, this may partly be attributed to my aiming technique, but nonetheless it works...

Btw have you shot the 9mm Corbon round Les ? I guarantee you, it will do some serius damage to a person, just as serious as any .45 round.

Now Adler, I think this is all one big missunderstanding, I never said the .45 was less of a round than the 9mm, just that the 9mm is atleast as effective in its role. A man hit with either a 9mm or .45 projectile won't feel much difference, as long as the FF's of the two rounds are the same.(Cause thats not always the case with these two rounds)

There's a reason why the 9mm is so popular with spec ops soldiers, SWAT units etc etc...

But as Les said a pistol is usually not your primary weapon, its a last ditch defense weapon which you'd rather not 'have' to use, as that usually means something has gone seriously wrong. (Although in buildings with no long hallways and such, pistols are preferred normally)

The absolute best weapon we had was infact a 9mm weapon, the MP-5, an excellent weapon which in most urban settings is even more effective than the very popular M4.

Lastly I have a good exercise you could try, which involves a dead 'pig'(Yes a Pig) or maybe a deer you've shot yourself(Thats if you hunt), and a robe or string to hold it up. When it hangs freely you can pump a couple of 9mm and .45 rounds into it and see what happens...... Yup it hardly moves when hit by either round...

So no-more arguments, just proof.....

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 16, 2005

Soren to be quite frank I dont care to discuss this with you anymore because I feel like I am talking to a brick wall. It is rather annoying actually.

Soren · Dec 16, 2005

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Soren to be quite frank I dont care to discuss this with you anymore because I feel like I am talking to a brick wall. It is rather annoying actually.

Thats fine with me Adler, but try that little 'test' in practice and see the results.

If not, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

There's no reason for us both to get annoyed with each other, so lets move on shall we.

-------------------------------------------

The Mauser C96 with the holster/shoulder stock being used in combat:

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 16, 2005

Agreed lets agree to disagree here.

schwarzpanzer · Dec 20, 2005

Soren said:
There's a reason why the 9mm is so popular with spec ops soldiers, SWAT units etc etc...

Internal affairs allows 'dum-dums', these units usually use hollow-point Hydra-shock rounds, my guess is DerAdler uses FMJ Parabellums?

NB: The RoF and magazine capacity are usually higher with a 9-milly.

102first_hussars · Dec 20, 2005

To keep this going, I have shot several individuals with a 9mm round and they did nothing but either keep coming, slump forward or spin and drop where they were hit....

But what kind of pistol were you using? because I can assure you that that would not happen with a FN High Power

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 21, 2005

Considering he is in the US military it was probably a Baretta 9mm which sucks! But him being Spec Ops who knows because they use different weapons then we do.

schwarzpanzer · Dec 21, 2005

There are actually 3 rounds (or 4) being discussed here, not 2:

1. 9mm PB (Army NATO)

2. 9mm dum-dum (Police Special Forces)

3. .45 ACP (All)

(4. .45 dum-dum? (Police Special Forces)

Basically the 9mm PB's wound channels can seal up (stopping the bleeding) and the hole is/was 9mm and little energy is transferred to the target.

However with dum-dums the round flattens transferring all energy (can cause instant heart failure due to shock) the wound is much bigger than 9mm and does not seal back up.

DerAdler:

Hk USP is now the standard US Army pistol, maybe you will be updated?

BTW: You get your M240 yet? 8)

wmaxt said:
It is also my understanding the .45 was developed after the Phillipeno campain in the early part of the century because the .38 (essentialy 9mm) would not put down a Phillipeno tribesman.

Soren said:
I'm sure you'll agree that there's a considerable difference between the 9mm's up to 445 ft/lbs of energy and the .38's 230 ft/lbs of energy. So saying that the .38 is essentially a 9mm is very far from the truth indeed.

The .38 special (or DOT 380) is actually a bit better than the 9mm (.35) and is really .357 (like the 77mm was actually 76mm, PlanD) hence the Ingrams MAC10 and MAC11.

I think there is confusion between this and the old .38?

Soren said:
The reason the FBI are beginning to favor the .40 S&W round is not at all because they don't want to admit being wrong about anything. The reason is simply that the .40 S&W will stop man more consistently than either the 9mm or the .45, as the wound cavity of the .40 is much larger. FBI gelatine tests have confirmed this, as-well as proving that the most effective man-stopper to date is the .357.

I think you are neglecting the .44 and .50 AE there. I know the .44 mag is more lethal than the .357 mag.

Erich:

Ever try firing the .45 full auto. wow, about broke my arm off trying to keep the thing down stright in-line

Yes, it's good for big and/or well-trained soldiers, what weapon is full-auto and .45 you are talking about?

I preferred the 7.62mm, handy, quite small and that was the point

I've (almost) heard nothing but bad things about the 7.62's stopping power except for it's compactness, recoil and range.

that really is the name of the game, superior lightness

I've (almost) heard nothing but bad things about the Glock17, it's lightness makes for a bad recoil.

We made up our own rounds and this was a prerequisite in the field.

Highly illegal, don't let the hippies get wind of that! :hippy:

i.e stripping the bullet's jacket off the lead core? naughty, naughty!

Soron:

Btw have you shot the 9mm Corbon round Les ? I guarantee you, it will do some serius damage to a person, just as serious as any .45 round.

But not as much as a .45 Corbon.

Aren't 5.56 Corbons replacing the SS109 (5.56 NATO) now?

The absolute best weapon we had was infact a 9mm weapon, the MP-5, an excellent weapon which in most urban settings is even more effective than the very popular M4.

The MP5-10 (10mm) is better, as is the G33K(?) (5.56mm) to some who served in Northern Ireland (though I can't see why?)

Full metal jacket 9mm MP5 vs 5.56mm M4?

- I reckon the 9mm would be better, but my knowledge of the 5.56 is confused.

102first_hussars · Dec 22, 2005

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Considering he is in the US military it was probably a Baretta 9mm which sucks! But him being Spec Ops who knows because they use different weapons then we do.

I was actually expecting him to say Beretta,Anyway I think its about time the Canadian Military gets a new sidearm, I have heard good things about the Glock.

Nonskimmer · Dec 22, 2005

What about the SIG-Sauer P-225 9mm? Not good enough? I've only ever practiced with it, so I couldn't tell you how it actually rates in a combat situation, but I've had it with me on several boardings. Fortunately I've never had to shoot anyone.

102first_hussars · Dec 22, 2005

I really wouldnt know, I just know that the RCMP swear by Glock 9mm and swear the Beretta is a peice of shit.

Soren · Dec 22, 2005

Basically the 9mm PB's wound channels can seal up (stopping the bleeding) and the hole is/was 9mm and little energy is transferred to the target.

Schwarzpanzer, the 9mm military M882 Ball round will tumble once inside you, causing considerable 'internal' damage and bleeding. And no, you might not bleed alot from the entry-hole, but from the exit-hole on your back you will. (Except if shot point blank, where the round just exits you cleanly, however internal damage is still considerable)

The .38 special (or DOT 380) is actually a bit better than the 9mm (.35) and is really .357 (like the 77mm was actually 76mm, PlanD) hence the Ingrams MAC10 and MAC11.

I think there is confusion between this and the old .38?

Schwartspanzer the .38 special is normally a 110gr round at 901 fps, so NO it is not as powerful as the 9mm parabellum.

The 9mm parabellum will propelle a 147gr bullet at 1300fps, so you see there's a considerable difference there.

And I don't know where you got the idea that the .38 spec is a .357 mag.

I think you are neglecting the .44 and .50 AE there. I know the .44 mag is more lethal than the .357 mag.

No, the wound cavity of the .357 mag is massive, more than either the .44 or .50 AE actually, cause they just penetrate.

But not as much as a .45 Corbon.

There's nearly no difference between the two Schwarzpanzer, other than the 9mm being more accurate.

The MP5-10 (10mm) is better, as is the G33K(?)

No.

schwarzpanzer · Dec 23, 2005

102first_hussars said:
I really wouldnt know, I just know that the RCMP swear by Glock 9mm and swear the Beretta is a peice of sh*t.

I have a friend in Norwegian special forces, he has a Glock and hates it.

IMHO the Beretta M9(2FS) is a good 9mm handgun, as is the Sig-Sauer P229.

I suppose for Army use, the best gun would be the Hk USP.

Soren:

Schwarzpanzer, the 9mm military M882 Ball round will tumble once inside you, causing considerable 'internal' damage and bleeding.

Well, I've seen plenty who have survived 9mm PB (including headshots).

Though once a dude got shot in the roof of the mouth - nasty!

And I don't know where you got the idea that the .38 spec is a .357 mag.

I didn't say mag, just .357.

The Ingram MAC11 (.38) is more powerful than the MAC10 (9mm) I'm sure?

No, the wound cavity of the .357 mag is massive, more than either the .44 or .50 AE actually, cause they just penetrate.

Yes, for energy transfer the .44 mag is more destructive.

There's nearly no difference between the two Schwarzpanzer, other than the 9mm being more accurate.

The .45 is subsonic and is more powerful "like being hit with a spade".

The MP5-10 (10mm) is better, as is the G33K(?)

Yes it is, the FBI and SAS know this, the 10mm is probably the best round (better than .357 mag - proven) but is hardly better than 9mm when firing FMJ's.

Soren · Dec 23, 2005

Well, I've seen plenty who have survived 9mm PB (including headshots).

I've seen a man survive a .357 mag to the head, so that comment bares no merit at all.

Though once a dude got shot in the roof of the mouth - nasty!

Shoot yourself in the roof of the mouth and your guaranteed to die, no'one survives that.

I didn't say mag, just .357.

The Ingram MAC11 (.38) is more powerful than the MAC10 (9mm) I'm sure?

No.

Yes, for energy transfer the .44 mag is more destructive.

The .357 mag is the most destructive pistol round in terms of internal damage caused to the person hit, and thats a fact Schwarzpanzer.

The .45 is subsonic and is more powerful "like being hit with a spade".

No, the 9mm is just as effective in its role.

And for future reference, the .45 has an average velocity of 860 fps, the 9mm 1300 fps.

Yes it is, the FBI and SAS know this, the 10mm is probably the best round (better than .357 mag - proven) but is hardly better than 9mm when firing FMJ's.

Thats untrue Schwarzpanzer ! Where have you heard all this ?

schwarzpanzer · Dec 23, 2005

I can get the info for my last point (10mm).

The rolling eyes is unfair, the .38 spesh actually measures .375 and can be used in the Colt Python etc.

(Though I wouldn't use a .357 mag in a .38 spesh )

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 26, 2005

schwarzpanzer said:
Hk USP is now the standard US Army pistol, maybe you will be updated?

BTW: You get your M240 yet? 8)

What are your sources on this because we have not been told anything about that. Our Armorer is pretty up to date on these things and he has said nothing about a replacement for the 9mm being found yet. I did a search at the Official Army's website and found nothing on it.

As for the M240-G, no and we are not sure when we are getting them either.

schwarzpanzer · Dec 28, 2005

I know special forces are using it, heard it is replacing the M9, then again I also heard the G36 is replacing the SA80 and the XM8 is replacing the M16/M4A1/M249...

Pity you're not getting your Gimpy yet.

I did a search at the Official Army's website and found nothing on it.

Yeah, theres an article on the M9 that's gone down there.

Pity you're not getting your 'Gimp' ( ) yet.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 28, 2005

Yes the article about the 9mm at the official Armys website says they are still looking for a replacement for it. The HK is one of the possibilities but it has not been decided yet.

schwarzpanzer · Dec 31, 2005

Saw something the other day that looked like a USP with a compensator.

Are there any reasons why military weapons can't have compensators?
Cost I guess, but are there other reasons?

The only military weapon with a compensator that spring to mind is the M1928A1, which was not strictly a military design and had it's compensator dropped for it's Army redesign.

Anyway the main problem of the .45 in Army service (recoil) would then be solved.

BTW I'd ditch the threaded barrel on the USP for Army usage, daft move?

Handguns from World Wars

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