He 162 volksjager

[bobbysocks]

Largely agree with FBJ, except as I understood it, rather than spies, it was the almost clockwork timetable the F-117's were adhering to that allowed the shootdown - same place, same time, every day. Seems a silly basic error to make and I recall that ops were mixed up a bit afterwards.

ya know....we seem to do that crap A LOT! i read/ saw stories of how we did that in korea....where the migs knew where and when we would be there....and in vietman the 105s flew the same basic in and out route ( which we used once to sucker the newer migs up to fight ). baffles the hell out of me ...

 

[mikewint]

FBJ, thank you, my mind is not completely gone yet, i thought i had read something about water and its effect on the RAM coating. had not thought obout the bombbays but that also makes sense. i also seem to recall something about the pilot being a large part of the crafts radar cross section

 

[FLYBOYJ]

i also seem to recall something about the pilot being a large part of the crafts radar cross section

Not true - the pilot is shielded within the cockpit by ram and in the case of the 117, the canopy.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

ya know....we seem to do that crap A LOT! i read/ saw stories of how we did that in korea....where the migs knew where and when we would be there....and in vietman the 105s flew the same basic in and out route ( which we used once to sucker the newer migs up to fight ). baffles the hell out of me ...

Very true, especially during Vietnam, MacNamara as such a genius!

I did read somewhere that NATO suspected Serb spies close by Aviano, coincides with the story about "spotters" in the text.

 

[mikewint]

FJB, won't radar penetrate the plastic canopy?
and then there was our very special ambassador to laos/cambodia Mr Sullivan who hog-tied almost everything we tried to do and had the power to override military decisions. it took him weeks to approve ORPLANS involving border crossing. one of the main reason we never managed to get a live POW

 

[FLYBOYJ]

FJB, won't radar penetrate the plastic canopy?

No. Its abosrbed away from the canopy.

and then there was our very special ambassador to laos/cambodia Mr Sullivan who hog-tied almost everything we tried to do and had the power to override military decisions. it took him weeks to approve ORPLANS involving border crossing. one of the main reason we never managed to get a live POW

Yep!

 

[bobbysocks]

would that be pre prarie fire and daniel boone?? post or during? for being a "world power and military leader" we make the stupidiest decisions sometimes.

 

[Waynos]

I did read somewhere that NATO suspected Serb spies close by Aviano, coincides with the story about "spotters" in the text.

Hmmm, I dunno though, 'spies' finding out the flightpaths conjures up a very different image in my mind than 'spotters' observing a routine. Could it have been a case of "it must have been spies 'cos we certainly weren't making basic stupid mistakes and underestimating the enemy, no sir!



Someone even tried to claim it was a B-2 that was shot down at one stage

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hmmm, I dunno though, 'spies' finding out the flightpaths conjures up a very different image in my mind than 'spotters' observing a routine. Could it have been a case of "it must have been spies 'cos we certainly weren't making basic stupid mistakes and underestimating the enemy, no sir!



Someone even tried to claim it was a B-2 that was shot down at one stage

"The Serbs had spies outside the Italian airbase most of the bombers operated from. When the bombers took off, the information on what aircraft they, and how many, quickly made it to Zoltan and the other battery commanders."

Air Defense: How to Take Down an F-117

 

[Waynos]

But observing a take off is of no use unless you also know the flightpath, and the only way they knew that was because it was repeated day in, day out. That was the real problem.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

But observing a take off is of no use unless you also know the flightpath, and the only way they knew that was because it was repeated day in, day out. That was the real problem.

You didn't need to know the flight path, just the time "en route." The bombings were routine and carried out on a daily basis in almost the same locations. All one would have to do is get a time on take off and time the first bomb dropped. If over the course of a few days this became consistent, you'll have the time en route so you can calculate when the aircraft would arrive over target based upon take off times. From the stories I heard the Serbs at Aviano just used cell phones to call back to their counterparts in Serbia when they saw 117s taking off which was before dusk.

 

[Waynos]

But were they shot down over the target or en route? I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or not as you then describe the F-117's as following a consistent routine, which was my point. It doesn't really matter. If you vary your route you eliminate this possibility and also vary the time you arrive. There was a simple RAF diagram I saw more than 30 years ago showing how the aircraft in a Tornado squadron would all attack a given target from different directions within a single raid to help prevent the defences being ready for the next aircraft. If this was being done then the enemy knowing the take off time would help them not a jot.

Surely it is not hard to follow this model, even if you extrapolate it for raids by a single aircraft over several days, the point holds.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

But were they shot down over the target or en route?

Over the Target

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or not as you then describe the F-117's as following a consistent routine, which was my point. It doesn't really matter. If you vary your route you eliminate this possibility and also vary the time you arrive. There was a simple RAF diagram I saw more than 30 years ago showing how the aircraft in a Tornado squadron would all attack a given target from different directions within a single raid to help prevent the defences being ready for the next aircraft. If this was being done then the enemy knowing the take off time would help them not a jot.

Surely it is not hard to follow this model, even if you extrapolate it for raids by a single aircraft over several days, the point holds.

Again over the target. If you have a consistent take off time and every day the bombs fall at the same time of day, the route is immaterial. Yes, you would think that someone would change routes and time in route to throw off AA fire but this was not the case.

Sometimes military intelligence is an oxymoron!