Propellorhead
Airman 1st Class
THE jU287 used the fuselage of a He 177 A-0 Grief, therefore size is not different to the V38 aircraft
Heinkel He-177 Greif
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Just so you know - you're replying to a post that is almost a year old by a member who was banned.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The Ju287 used the fuselage of an He177A-5.
Propellorhead
Airman 1st Class
It is the topic which interests me
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
OK - just letting you know
Hi PH.
My understanding (limited), is that monstrous conglomeration of aircraft parts (He-177, Ju-388, Ju-352 and B-24) that we call the Ju-287 is just a rapidly produced machine to test the FSW concept.
The production Ju-287 was going to be quite different with a very slim fuselage as per Vahe's illustration showing the main undercart wheels barely fitting when retracted.
He mentioned...
"However, it is clear that the He 177 V38 was merely intended to test the bomb bay of the production Junkers Ju 287 forward swept wing bomber."
How can that be?
Sure, I can visualise the 'Monster' with the large bomb-bay - but the Nazi's weren't gonna use that to drop an A-bomb - were they??
Those German power turrets were clever designs, but visibility was terrible in almost all of them. They also were never extensively exposed to operational conditions either, so their ongoing reliability under stress is an unknown - only a few made it to frontline aircraft.
The Ju 287 that was built was a concept demonstrator and was not representative of the production bomber.
The production Ju 287 did not resemble the Ju 287 that was constructed. The second prototype Ju 287 was built and was transported to the USSR postwar and was redesignated the EF 131 and was smaller overall than the first. It had been completed by the time the Soviets got to it and in their hands it completed over 11 hours of flight testing.
Here's some information with a grainy image of it next to a Lisunov Li-2, the one I've seen is clearer than this image.
Propellorhead
Airman 1st Class
Nazi Germany was developing an He177 with contra rotating propellers?
Whilst scratching around for quotable sources on the He177 V38 prototype I discovered a source which came to light in 2005 from a He177 pilot Peter Brill, born 1924 who trained for a mission to bomb New York... Not something which I ever took too seriously because of the He177's limited range.... That was until I re-read his 2005 interview much more carefully. IN AN ARTICLE WHICH I copied
He asserted in April 2005 that at least four He-177 were converted with "enormous bomb bays" in 1943 "big enough to fit a car"
Out of six pilots chosen to fly the New York bombing mission, he was the only one to survive the war.
I cut & pasted an article in German to an M/S word document, but I failed to copy a hyperlink to that particular article. I finally translated it with google translate in December 2021. the text reads:
[ Sprottau southeast of Berlin was annexed as part of Poland after WW2 ]
The contemporary witness AK saw four He-177s standing in Sprottau when he was drafted into the Air Force at the end of 1943 and was supposed to be trained as a fighter pilot. The machines, hidden under camouflage nets, would have had a huge bomb bay in which there would have been room for a car. The modern He-277 B-5 / R2 should also fly to America in one-way flight. Up to July 3, 1944, nine copies of the high-altitude long-range bomber powered by four DB603 or Jumo 222 (later retrofitting) could still be produced. At a service ceiling of 15,000 m, the> He-277 B-5 <was able to transport 2500 kg bombs over 6000 km (without additional tanks) and easily reach 700 km / h in orbit flight.
According to America in> Disposable flight <should be the modern> He-277 B-5/R2 <fly. July 1944 were nine copies of the four-DB603 or Jumo 222 (later retrofitting) driven Höhenfernbombers produced. With a service ceiling of 15000 m was> He-277 B-5 <2500 kg bombs over 6000 km (without extra tanks) in the transport and rail inclination flight easily 700 km / h reached.
Peter Brill Sander Article
Salient points made by Peter Brill:
*At least four He177 were converted with enlarged bomb bays. designated as AK177 aircraft.
* Aircraft had four bladed contra rotating propellers (which he notes gave them the necessary range performance)
*Brill mentions turbines rather than engines
using contra rotating propellers makes a lot of sense as the efficiency gained may have extended the range of the He177 by 16% negating objections to the He177's range. It is no co-incidence perhaps that the Tu95 Bear with contra rotating propellers has an extraordinary 9,320nm long range?
Contra rotating props give the He177 a range of at least 4,036nm, over 2,700nm previously.
When the Griffon powered Spitfire Mk.XlX got contra rotating propellers the ferry range improved from 1,760km of the Mk.XlV to 2,250km on the Griffon powered Mk.XlX.
At least one POW interrogation report SRA 4394, REFERS TO AN He177 with an enlarged bomb bay.
He asserted in April 2005 that at least four He-177 were converted with "enormous bomb bays" in 1943 "big enough to fit a car"
Out of six pilots chosen to fly the New York bombing mission, he was the only one to survive the war.
I cut & pasted an article in German to an M/S word document, but I failed to copy a hyperlink to that particular article. I finally translated it with google translate in December 2021. the text reads:
Aircraft and crews have been made available for this since 1943. Aircraft and crews have been made available since 1943. Peter Brill reported on April 2, 2005 at a conference in Sabadell about his service as an Air Force pilot that he was selected for a special mission after completing his course at a flight school. April 2005 at a conference in Sabadell [Spain] on his service as an Air Force pilot that he is after the end of his course at a flight school for a special selected. He was to be trained in astronavigation for He-177s, which were intended to bomb New York.
The contemporary witness AK saw four He-177s standing in Sprottau when he was drafted into the Air Force at the end of 1943 and was supposed to be trained as a fighter pilot. The machines were intended to fly non-stop to New York. The machines, hidden under camouflage nets, would have had a huge bomb bay in which there would have been room for a car. Two propeller turbines with counter-rotating four-blade propellers, together with an increased fuel supply, should ensure sufficient range and speed.
[ Sprottau southeast of Berlin was annexed as part of Poland after WW2 ]
What happened to the "He-177" American bombers from Sprottau is uncertain. According to the information provided by the witness, they probably remained in Sprottau and, if not destroyed beforehand, fell into the hands of the Russians. He himself saw the four aircraft for the last time in the summer of 1944, when he was assigned to the paratroopers. The question remains whether this is already the.
Operation machines has acted. What was up with the propeller turbines has not been clarified either. The modern He-277 B-5 / R2 was also supposed to fly to America on a one-way flight. Up to July 3, 1944, nine copies of the high-altitude long-range bomber powered by four DB603 or Jumo 222 (later retrofitting) could still be produced. At a service ceiling of 15,000 m, the> He-277 B-5 <was able to transport 2500 kg bombs over 6000 km (without additional tanks) and easily reach 700 km / h in orbit flight. [ 378 Knots]
The contemporary witness AK saw four He-177s standing in Sprottau when he was drafted into the Air Force at the end of 1943 and was supposed to be trained as a fighter pilot. The machines, hidden under camouflage nets, would have had a huge bomb bay in which there would have been room for a car. The modern He-277 B-5 / R2 should also fly to America in one-way flight. Up to July 3, 1944, nine copies of the high-altitude long-range bomber powered by four DB603 or Jumo 222 (later retrofitting) could still be produced. At a service ceiling of 15,000 m, the> He-277 B-5 <was able to transport 2500 kg bombs over 6000 km (without additional tanks) and easily reach 700 km / h in orbit flight.
He should be in astro navigation for He-177 training, which were designed, to bomb New York. The witness saw four AK-177 He is in Sprottau, the end of 1943 when he was collected on Air Force fighter pilot and to be trained. The hidden Tarnnetz machine had an enormous bomb bay has in place a car would have been. Two propeller turbines with counter Vierblattpropellern should be read in conjunction with oversized fuel supply for sufficient range and speed of care. What to do with the> I-177 <-bombers from America Sprottau happened is uncertain.According to the witnesses they were probably in Sprottau and fell, unless they were destroyed before the Russians in their hands. He himself saw the four aircraft for the last time in the summer of 1944, when he was one of the paratroopers was abkommandiert. The question remains whether it is already here to use the machines acted. What are the propeller turbines to be had, is not clarified
According to America in> Disposable flight <should be the modern> He-277 B-5/R2 <fly. July 1944 were nine copies of the four-DB603 or Jumo 222 (later retrofitting) driven Höhenfernbombers produced. With a service ceiling of 15000 m was> He-277 B-5 <2500 kg bombs over 6000 km (without extra tanks) in the transport and rail inclination flight easily 700 km / h reached.
Peter Brill Sander Article
Salient points made by Peter Brill:
*At least four He177 were converted with enlarged bomb bays. designated as AK177 aircraft.
* Aircraft had four bladed contra rotating propellers (which he notes gave them the necessary range performance)
*Brill mentions turbines rather than engines
using contra rotating propellers makes a lot of sense as the efficiency gained may have extended the range of the He177 by 16% negating objections to the He177's range. It is no co-incidence perhaps that the Tu95 Bear with contra rotating propellers has an extraordinary 9,320nm long range?
Contra rotating props give the He177 a range of at least 4,036nm, over 2,700nm previously.
When the Griffon powered Spitfire Mk.XlX got contra rotating propellers the ferry range improved from 1,760km of the Mk.XlV to 2,250km on the Griffon powered Mk.XlX.
At least one POW interrogation report SRA 4394, REFERS TO AN He177 with an enlarged bomb bay.
Thumpalumpacus
Captain
Something about a four-gun turret in an airplane gives me the warm fuzzies.
In a battleship, not so much.
Propellorhead
Airman 1st Class
The Ju287 had fixed spatted wheels, therefore , there is no conflict that wheels had to retract into the bomb bay. that just is not true. It had the fuselage from an He177 with the same 4.6m Length bomb bay of the He177 V38 aircraft.
The Ju287 had a range of 850nm with a ceiling of 30,800ft, speed: 276kt @23,000ft with 7,000kg payload
Marginally, it may have been able to bomb the UK.
I never said they did.
You entered into this thread at a time when a member was convinced the production Ju-287 (V-3 onwards) was going to incorporate the He 177 V38 bomb-bay.
Then he showed us the cross-section of the production Ju-287 - now I ask you again - would it fit? I personally don't think so. See below.
Remember - we're not talking about the spatted monster seen at left - but the V3 version seen on the right. As I understand, it incorporated a somewhat slimmer Ju-388-like fuselage...
Cross section V3...
Good shots!
Propellorhead
Airman 1st Class
He 274 had a much greater wingspan than the He277 B-5, plus the wing was attached much further forward. The He277 however had an ability to carry a 4,065kg tonne bomb load to 49,210ft altitude. After the war France kept two He274 flying.
Compared with B-29:
Service ceiling.
He-277: 15,000 m (49,210 ft)
B-29: 10,200 m (33,600 ft)
He-277: 6,000 km (3,728 miles)
B-29: 5,230 km (3,250 mi)
He277: Max speed. 354mph
Both had almost identical. 286mph. Cruise speed.
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Propellorhead
Airman 1st Class
Are you not aware the Ju287 was built at the Teilehersteller der Junkers AG. Letov?
The same place where the Heinkel He177 V38 was modified?
The He177 V38 was modified by Teilehersteller der Junkers AG. at the Letov plant.
The fuselage and cockpit of the Ju287 V1 were taken from a He177. The tail empennage was grafted from a Ju188
The same place where the Heinkel He177 V38 was modified?
The He177 V38 was modified by Teilehersteller der Junkers AG. at the Letov plant.
The fuselage and cockpit of the Ju287 V1 were taken from a He177. The tail empennage was grafted from a Ju188
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I can say with complete confidence that I was not aware of that fact.
Again, what you are presenting is circumstantial evidence. As has been pointed out to you already, the production Ju 287 had a different cross section to the He 177. As I mentioned, the first example was completed and taken to the Soviet Union. There are photographs of it that exist in Soviet hands. It is up to you to produce concrete i.e. first source evidence that what you are claiming is true.
