High altitude intercept: Spitfire and P47

[pinsog]

We all know about the Spitfire being used for high altitude interception of JU86P(I think) at 49,000 feet. The P47 was also very good at high altitude, one of, if not the best high altitude fighter of WW2.

Could a P47 have made the 49,000 foot interception? I know it would have to be lightened, so lets ditch 6 of the 8 machine guns and all of the armor plate to make it a special, high altitude PR interceptor.

Was the P47 capable of doing the job?

 

[davebender]

With nitrous oxide almost any fighter aircraft could climb that high and remain until the nitrous oxide tank is empty. Would be tough on the pilot without cockpit pressurization though.

 

[wuzak]

The P-47 also took longer to climb to altitude. Certainly to 20,000ft and 30,000ft. Not sure over 40,000ft, though.

 

[fastmongrel]

With nitrous oxide almost any fighter aircraft could climb that high and remain until the nitrous oxide tank is empty. Would be tough on the pilot without cockpit pressurization though.

Specially lightened Spitfires with extended wingtips, specially tuned engines and propellors barely made it (only a few of the JU86 flights were ever intercepted and only one was even shot at) and were constantly on coffin corner. I seriously doubt that just fitting a Nitrous tank to almost any fighter will get it up to 49,000ft and I very much doubt that the pilot would have any control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffin_corner_%28aerodynamics%29

 

[awack]

Specially lightened Spitfires with extended wingtips,

Ive seen one of these in an old documentary, the wings are long and pointy, they look very similar to the wings of the ju 188.

 

[fastmongrel]

The wingtips were bolted on additions and the pilots hated them as they turned the Spit never the greatest rolling plane into something that flew like a wardrobe below 20,000ft.

They did the job at altitude though increasing service ceiling by approximately 4,000ft.

 

[Balljoint]

Pierre Clostermann in his book Big Show describes his high altitude intercept with another Spit. Perhaps this was not at 40,000' since I recall the target being a single engine fighter, but it's been some time since I read his book. I'll see if I can find it

 

[Juha]

Hello Balljoint
its Bf 109G-6/R3 wn 20357 A6+XH of 1(F)/120 Ff. Oblt. Helmut Quednau missing on 20th.Feb.1944. The combat report is for P/O J. Blair D.F.M. and F/L Bennetts of 602 Sqd. with the 109 credited to P/O Blair. I can only assume that Closterman's account is written from F/L Bennetts point of view. P/O Blairs Spitfire damaged Cat. E belly landed on Island of Stronsay following being hit by debris from the 109.

Juha

 

[FLYBOYJ]

What model Spit, what model P-47?

 

[pinsog]

What model Spit, what model P-47?

FLYBOY I'm not going to be picky about which model of either aircraft. Lets go with any P47 after the P47-D25, the model that introduced the paddle blade prop, and the Spitfire model that coincided with that P47.

 

[Juha]

A few Ju 86Ps/Rs were shot down by the specially modified Spits from 103MU in Med.

Juha

 

[rochie]

Hello Balljoint
its Bf 109G-6/R3 wn 20357 A6+XH of 1(F)/120 Ff. Oblt. Helmut Quednau missing on 20th.Feb.1944. The combat report is for P/O J. Blair D.F.M. and F/L Bennetts of 602 Sqd. with the 109 credited to P/O Blair. I can only assume that Closterman's account is written from F/L Bennetts point of view. P/O Blairs Spitfire damaged Cat. E belly landed on Island of Stronsay following being hit by debris from the 109.

Juha

you are correct Juha, the chapter in Closterman's book is written from the other pilots perspective.

 

[fastmongrel]

A few Ju 86Ps/Rs were shot down by the specially modified Spits from 103MU in Med.

Juha

I have never come across any convincing (apart from a dubiously evidence free claim in wrongapedia) evidence that a high altitude Ju86P was ever shot down. There were JU86P intercepts and on at least 2 occasions hits were claimed but the LW didnt record any that were lost to enemy action and I have never come across an official RAF official claim.

 

[Juha]

At least on 6-9-42 there is Ju86R1 5101 of 3(F)/123 in crashlanding with 60% damage at Bir el Abd following Feindbeschuss ( Luft QM's report dated 6-10-42 ).
2-7-43 4U+IK crew of Ltn. Stock missing from mission to Alexandria

 

[fastmongrel]

At least on 6-9-42 there is Ju86R1 5101 of 3(F)/123 in crashlanding with 60% damage at Bir el Abd following Feindbeschuss ( Luft QM's report dated 6-10-42 ).
2-7-43 4U+IK crew of Ltn. Stock missing from mission to Alexandria

Unfortunately I dont read German do you have a translation of the report. I have had a quick look but I cant find a corresponding RAF claim for a high altitude intercept on those dates. Possibly they were both caught at a lower altitude by SAAF or USAAF pilots and there wont be an RAF report.

 

[Juha]

Unfortunately I dont read German do you have a translation of the report. I have had a quick look but I cant find a corresponding RAF claim for a high altitude intercept on those dates. Possibly they were both caught at a lower altitude by SAAF or USAAF pilots and there wont be an RAF report.

Hello, I'm using secondary sources but the following:
6/9/42 P/O GEC Genders and P/O A. Gold Ju86
2/7/43 P/O J. Hunter P/O GT Pratley (80 Squadron) and two pilots of 103 MU. But the victim was in fact Ju88 (4U+IK Ltn Franz Stock crew). Sorry for that, I was in a hurry and only checked that there was a Ju 86P or R coded 4U+IK, see on Crete Image of the Junkers Ju.86 | 4U+IK - Wing's Palette, but after all the shot down plane was a Ju 88 from same unit and same code.

Juha

 

[Balljoint]

Hello Balljoint
its Bf 109G-6/R3 wn 20357 A6+XH of 1(F)/120 Ff. Oblt. Helmut Quednau missing on 20th.Feb.1944. The combat report is for P/O J. Blair D.F.M. and F/L Bennetts of 602 Sqd. with the 109 credited to P/O Blair. I can only assume that Closterman's account is written from F/L Bennetts point of view. P/O Blairs Spitfire damaged Cat. E belly landed on Island of Stronsay following being hit by debris from the 109.

Juha

According to Clostermann, on Feb 21st, 1944,

"Jacques and Kelly were on 'readiness' from 1030 hours to 1400 hours. Superb weather but bitterly cold.. Not having anything much to do, Ian Blair and I were playing a game of chess. At12 o'clock everybody went off to lunch, but we decided to finish our game. Kelly enviously watched the others going. …. We ended up taking pity on him and offered to take their place. They accepted….."

Thus, according to Clostermann, he and Ian Blair made the intercept of a 109G with Axillary tanks at 40,000 in Strat-Spit VIIs. The 109 went into a terminal velocity dive -600mph TAS in the Spit- but was caught and hit by Blair at 10,000', probably since the 109 didn't (couldn't?) jettison the auxiliary tanks. Blair made a belly landing on Stronsay after being hit by debris.

I have no idea as to which report is correct. Clostemann's version is from his notes after the war but does include details such as a congratulatory telegram from Admiral Ramsay.

 

[Juha]

It's just one of many "artistic liberties" Closterman took while writing his books.

Juha

 

[syscom3]

Isnt 49,000 ft. above the point you need cockpit pressurization or a pressure suit?

 

[davparlr]

Isnt 49,000 ft. above the point you need cockpit pressurization or a pressure suit?

I believe you are right.