highest kill ratio (5 Viewers)

[GrauGeist]

so...but definitely many who underclaimed were people who did not want to make noise about killing enemies en masse..

Like who, for example?

 

[topspeed]

Like who, for example?

Clearly of the aces I know...Mauno Fräntilä and Kyösti Karhila.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It may be so...but definitely many who underclaimed were people who did not want to make noise about killing enemies en masse...or enjoyed if the other claimed and were just keeping up the morale and positive spirit in the unit.

Heh?

Show me a fighter pilot who does not want to make noise?

Sorry, but this is a reach.

 

[topspeed]

Heh?

Show me a fighter pilot who does not want to make noise?

Sorry, but this is a reach.

You have to remember that after Stalingrad everyone knew we were going to loose the game we did not start.

Why make noise if the verdict after the war was hanging or a 10 year trip to gulag.

Even a membership in boy scouts was deemed criminal in the eyes of the victor.

 

[GrauGeist]

You have to remember that after Stalingrad everyone knew we were going to loose the game we did not start.

Why make noise if the verdict after the war was hanging or a 10 year trip to gulag.

Even a membership in boy scouts was deemed criminal in the eyes of the victor.

You talk as though Finland was occupied by the Soviets at the end of WWII.

 

[topspeed]

You talk as though Finland was occupied by the Soviets at the end of WWII.

Well they did not know it in summer of 1944.

All patriotic movements were deemed illegal and 25% communists in the parlament...before the war they were illegal.

 

[andrewgeorge]

You have to remember that after Stalingrad everyone knew we were going to loose the game we did not start.

Why make noise if the verdict after the war was hanging or a 10 year trip to gulag.

Even a membership in boy scouts was deemed criminal in the eyes of the victor.

Your hypothesis is that during the continuation war Finnish fighter pilots under-claimed enemy aircraft destroyed because they were afraid of Soviet retribution after the war?

I think on the face of it that doesn't make much sense but it doesn't mean you're necessarily wrong--it would just be a very odd phenomenon. Especially since other Axis fighter pilots continued to over claim combat results at typical rates up to the end of the conflict. It seems to me that any anxiety about post-war retribution would be based more generally on one's status as an officer in the Finnish Air Force, not on how many Soviet aircraft he reported destroyed on this or that sortie.

Actually, I should clarify that: I do think you're necessarily wrong about that being a widespread pattern, since it appears to be a basic fact that on the whole Finnish fighter pilots (like all WW2 fighter pilots) over claimed enemy aircraft destroyed by a significant margin. But whether it ever occurred in any one instance? I'm theoretically open to it. I'd just need to see some evidence.

 

[topspeed]

Your hypothesis is that during the continuation war Finnish fighter pilots under-claimed enemy aircraft destroyed because they were afraid of Soviet retribution after the war?

I think on the face of it that doesn't make much sense but it doesn't mean you're necessarily wrong--it would just be a very odd phenomenon. Especially since other Axis fighter pilots continued to over claim combat results at typical rates up to the end of the conflict. It seems to me that any anxiety about post-war retribution would be based more generally on one's status as an officer in the Finnish Air Force, not on how many Soviet aircraft he reported destroyed on this or that sortie.

Actually, I should clarify that: I do think you're necessarily wrong about that being a widespread pattern, since it appears to be a basic fact that on the whole Finnish fighter pilots (like all WW2 fighter pilots) over claimed enemy aircraft destroyed by a significant margin. But whether it ever occurred in any one instance? I'm theoretically open to it. I'd just need to see some evidence.

Well I mentioned that Mauno Fräntilä did not count his kills at all. It may be because he was devoted christian.

 

[andrewgeorge]

Well I mentioned that Mauno Fräntilä did not count his kills at all. It may be because he was devoted christian.

Interesting. Surely his unit counted aircraft destroyed though. Typically command wants to know whether any results were gained from a mission.

 

[FulmenTheFinn]

Your hypothesis is that during the continuation war Finnish fighter pilots under-claimed enemy aircraft destroyed because they were afraid of Soviet retribution after the war?

His arguments are completely unknown to Finnish aviation history, completely unsubstantiated, and countered by well-documented post-war history, which among other things included plenty of literature and histories of the war that did not shy away from presenting Finnish military accomplishments against the USSR, along with whatever numbers of enemy men and materiel the Finns thought they'd destroyed, as fact.

But whether it ever occurred in any one instance?

If we're talking about wartime underclaiming and not some imaginary post-war censorship of Finnish fighter pilot claims, then of course that did happen. But it was so rare compared to overclaiming that one might even describe it as a rounding error. Case in point, in my almost 3,000 entries of Finnish fighter pilot claims, only a dozen or two cases are ones where an enemy aircraft was reported damaged, but which later research has verified was in reality shot down, i.e. was an underclaim. It's not necessarily an exhaustive list, but it gives you some idea of just how rare underclaiming really was.

Interesting. Surely his unit counted aircraft destroyed though. Typically command wants to know whether any results were gained from a mission.

The FAF credited Mauno Fräntilä with 5.5 victories and 2 damaged cases over 380 sorties.

Source: Suomen Ilmavoimien Historia 26: Ilmavoitot, Osa 1: Lentäjät A-M, p. 32.