History of Jagde Gruppe 52

Discussion in 'Non-fiction' started by al49, Jun 23, 2010.

  1. al49

    al49 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,267
    Likes Received:
    73
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    Milan, Italy
    Hi,
    if you are interested in the history of JG 52, the Gruppe who totalised 11,000 kills in WW2, I suggest to purchase these two specials of "Battailes Ariennes"
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Each booklet, over 120 pages in A4 format, includes a very detailed history of with many b/w pictures and some colour profiles (good for modellers as well)
    Text if of course in French.
    In europe these are available from specialized book-stores or modellers shops but can also be purchased direct from Le la Press in France
    Le catalogue de Avions Bateaux
    Cheers
    Alberto
     
  2. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    47,652
    Likes Received:
    1,416
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    Look interesting, thanks Alberto.
     
  3. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    13,090
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Platonic Sphere
    11,000 kills, hardly ............

    check out author Nico Fasts volumes the best available
     
  4. imalko

    imalko Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,669
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Vojvodina, Serbia
    What would be the correct figure for total number of kills of JG 52 then? I'm asking because I don't have the above mentioned book.
     
  5. al49

    al49 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,267
    Likes Received:
    73
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    Milan, Italy
    Hi,
    according to the books I mentioned above, these were exactly the kills of JG 52

    Stab: 100+ kills
    I Gruppe: 2,489 kills
    II Gruppe: 3,530
    III Gruppe: 4,050
    13 Slovack/JG 52: 216
    15 Croat/JG 52: 300+
    For an approximate total of 10,685 victories.
    Not to be forgotten that several 100+ aces belonged to JG 52. The book includes their pictures
    [​IMG]
    The first one is Erich Hartmann, with 352 kills.
    Cheers
    Alberto
     
  6. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    13,090
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Platonic Sphere
    #6 Erich, Jun 23, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2010
    new evidence points out dramatically that hartmann may have had only 80-100 kills, so if you take this as consideration JG 52 probably had half the number of kills quoted, same goes for JG 51 and 54. many kills over the Ost were not confirmed how could they be when no gun cameras were installed and the fighting was over such open areas when the wingman was not always close or involved with his own air battle it is the pilots viewpoint only.

    Furthermore I do not believe that any LW day ace achieved more than 200 kills, same goes for the Nazi Schlachtflieger Rüdel with the myth that he knocked out over 500 Soviet tanks, and mostly likley you can cut this score to half the number.
     
  7. Milosh

    Milosh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2009
    Messages:
    1,918
    Likes Received:
    96
    Trophy Points:
    48
    How many combat losses did the Soviets suffer?
     
  8. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    That strikes me as odd.

    If it was so difficult to verify aircraft kills during 1943 then how is this "new evidence" verifying aircraft kills 60 years after the fact?
     
  9. imalko

    imalko Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,669
    Likes Received:
    92
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Vojvodina, Serbia
    Yes, I too would like to learn more about this 'new' evidence and how it took 60+ years for them to surface.

    Here's one interesting quote (posted earlier on the forum) from an interview with top scoring Slovak ace of WW2 Ján Režňák (whose unit - Letka 13 - flew as a part of JG 52 in 1942/43) when he was asked about authenticity of kills achieved by Slovakian pilots on the Eastern front:

     
  10. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    13,090
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Platonic Sphere
    #10 Erich, Jun 23, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2010
    odd you guys say, think about it but don't get a headache. soviet archivs have opened so truth be told confirmation can be more accurate for cross checking. funny what total BS we have accepted about the LW fighter gods for so long is not fact at all.........

    am sorry but the whole procedure for the LW on counting kills was not as precise as one would believe. the 'new' evidence has been out for some 10 years now, ever considered why there is nothing new to report on the LW jagdgeschwaders except the same old news printed back in the 1970'1980's. when I started working on my JG 301 volume due a relatives involvement I found many interesting and strange comments in it's history which could not be and still is not backed up by factual evidence; this is also the same for the NF unit Kommando Welter which I have been working on for some long years, there is no factual evidence to support the confirmed data by the LW in the records of keeping
     
  11. al49

    al49 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,267
    Likes Received:
    73
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    Milan, Italy
    Still according to the second of the books presented above, the author, Philippe Saintes, took into due consideration that some recent researches cast a shadow of doubt on German aircraft victories on the Eastern front and to confirm his point, he mention that against a total of about 45,000 Luftwaffe kills in the East, Russian declared a total loss of 46,800 units.
    Cheers
    Alberto
     
  12. Nikademus

    Nikademus Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2007
    Messages:
    525
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Occupation:
    Drone
    Location:
    Seattle

    Love your avatar btw. :lol: 6th Stormo yes? Ita unit insignia artwork is nice to look at.

    Here's the estimates compiled out of Bergstrom's Black Cross/Red Star volumes 1-3 covering the war up to end 1942.


    Soviet

    21,200 lost total 6/22/41 - 12/6/41
    (10,600 in combat 6/22 - 12/31)
    5100 fighters
    4600 bombers
    600 ground attack
    300 other types

    German losses 6/22 - 12/6

    2093 lost total
    568 fighters
    758 bombers
    170 DB's
    330 recon
    267 misc


    1/42 - 6/42

    Soviet losses (ger source)

    6976 total
    5199 air to air (Author <2:1 overclaim) estimate using a 60% figure = 3120
    922 AA
    855 on ground (Author 10:1 overclaim) estimate =85

    German losses

    1170 total
    1046 air to air
    124 on ground


    Finns claim 355 air to air + 103 by AA vs. 34 losses
    Ita claim 47 air to air for 10 losses

    7/42 - 11/42 losses

    Soviet

    9100 total (14700 total all causes)
    4400 fighters (7000 total)
    1600 bombers (2500 total)
    1800 ground attack (2600 total)
    1300 misc (2600 total)

    German

    1119 total (100% destroyed)

    1026 air to air (850 bombers)
    93 ground
     
  13. VG-33

    VG-33 Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    273
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #13 VG-33, Jun 24, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2010
    Hi Alberto

    I think you shouldn't confund Kills and Claims even confirmed or not, ther'e absolutly two different thinks.
    There's nothing new or previously unpublished in that book where virtually no efforts are made to browse in soviet archives or work with a russian reasurcher. German claims are well-known since 70ies, no need to spend money for that, except if your'e a JG-52 big fan!

    Nice pics, pretty colors. But, in fact, for the historical value it's off present french football (socquer) team level, that's to say...

    Once this said, i'v got intention to visit Vigna di Valle museum this year. Can you tell us more?

    Regards

    VG 33, The FreeFrench!
     
  14. riacrato

    riacrato Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2009
    Messages:
    669
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    Project Manager in FADEC industrialization
    It's the same debate everytime.

    claims > awarded kills > real kills

    ...with varying ratios. And 2-3:1 (or more) is nothing out of the ordinary. Nothing dramatical about it at all.
     
  15. al49

    al49 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,267
    Likes Received:
    73
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    Milan, Italy
    OK, here is where translation may lead to misunderstanding or errors.
    On page 103 of the second book, the French term used is "victoires" that should correctly translate into "victories", but in many occasions the author use the German term "Abschuss" that should translate into "kill" but I'm not sure because I don't know German.
    In any case, I bought these two books because I'm on vacation and I have a lot of time to dedicate to reading.

    About the French soccer team, its value isn't much less then the Italian, at least for this time.

    I live in Milan and, so far, I never been in Vigna di Valle but I I've been told that is very interesting.
    Cheers
    Alberto
     
  16. VG-33

    VG-33 Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    273
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #16 VG-33, Jun 26, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2010
    Hi

    Hazanov had just took the average Luftwaffe overclaim 1:3 to 1:5 in mean 43-45 airbattles in the eastern front and applied it to Hartman.
    It's uncorrect, since some famous aces as Grislawski or Graff had their results confirmed for about 65-70% to more than 80% from soviet archives. It's why they were choosen by CF Gueust, Bergstorm indeed.
    For some others pathologic overclaimers as Rudorffer, Weissnberger, Lang browsing russian archives is just as usefull as trusting water with a sword; a big wastage of time and money.
    Hartman is probably of that category considering his own and his unit overclaim in some days of Jassy-Kichenev Battle (17 confirmed claims for 2 P-39 lost from archives) events. But it's too short to extrapolate that to all his career.


    I gess gun cameras are sometimes limiting the overclaim. One day Muller shoot down 6 soviet planes over Murmansk all confirmed by his wingman. There were bloody frog you could't see your own nose on soviet airfieds that day from russian archives, and not single flight was made...(From Y Rybine works)

    Don't think so, from:

    The best hit probability from NII-VVS-RKKA trials/studies does not overcome 0.02-0.03 for a T-34 attacked by a Ju-87G with 37 mm with wolfram core bullets on immobile tanks. With no air, no ground opposition, no smoke, no turbulencies, no wind gradient, no stress...
    That sighify: for damaging (not destroying, it's far from that!!) a sole T-34 you need at last 50 Ju-87G attacks (a full Geschwader!!!).
    Moreover from published soviet afterwar statistics no more than 2.4% of soviet tank losses were due to planes in general.
    Rudel real success issued from statistical display, should turn around 40-60 tanks and SU/ASU baddly hitted and damaged. Some of them written off.


    Regards
     
  17. tango35

    tango35 Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2005
    Messages:
    208
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Occupation:
    Marketing
    Location:
    Hannover Region
    Gentleman,
    the german system of air victory recognition and the later recognition of a victory for a pilot was very strict, so where are the proof - and i mean a real proof , not a proof based on propaganda material and later transcript - otherwise we can write the history of all documents in air war new. Or do e.g. the 332nd FG really not lost bomber under their escort ? a lie, but a nice own. Or are all aliied air victories confirmed if a german airplanes went to sea; the pilot received an air victory without a proof.
     
  18. VG-33

    VG-33 Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    273
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #18 VG-33, Jun 26, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2010
    Hi

    The german 21 points system was strict, the soviet one was even stricter, the question is with what "strictity" were they applied? Not very much it seems.

    Red Mueller episode again.

    The proof is in the archives of the other side. Of course they need to be compleete, no 100% garantee but it's VERY CLOSE to it from soviet side in 43-45 years, even overquoted since same planes could be mentionned lost in war diaries for many different times. See Krivosheiev and Alexeïev works. The Balance is round zero at 1-3% accuracy. No planes are stolen by martiens in twighlight zone in soviet archives like you can often find in german ones, even in quatermeister that's supposed to be the most complete. I mean the german plane was one day, and later wasn't: no loose, no write-off, no accident documents.
    I undestand german methodology is different, there's no natural " wear and tear" losses in acounts, since it's not a loss to them, but they are in soviet acounts. So many questions reminds about the faith of disappeared "from the archives" german planes.

    From Patric Facon, JY Lorant and CJE conversations, men that worked in german archives for long time.
     
  19. VG-33

    VG-33 Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2009
    Messages:
    273
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #19 VG-33, Jun 26, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2010
    Philippe Saintes should try to understand he's telling about before wrighting or publishing.

    46 100 are the GHQ numbers (Krivosheiev)
    43 300 are military plane losses, the diffrerence is made by night "civilian" Po-2, R-5, Li-2, TB-3, C-47... planes lost that are nothing to do with JG-52 claims.



    Mid 70ies, it was a well known fact that german claimed about 70 000 planes, destroyed 45 000 of them for the Lufr, the others for Flak.

    More precise datas make 48 000+ claims for Luftwaffe (nightJG, Stuka, Bombers, Schl...) in total 45 000 claims for Jagdwaffe only.

    You add 5-7000 more from, both AAA and geman allies aviation claims.

    So even if we take 45 000 to 45 000 it is not making a 0% overclaim.

    Cause a german claim to be validated from soviet, american, british or belgian losses database should fullfill:

    1) day and time conditions

    2) place, location conditions

    3) type condition, i understand you can take a MiG-3 for a LaGG or a Yak. But a I-153 for a TB-3 or an Il-4 that begins to be at limits...

    In that case, it reminds very few ot them


    Some examples:

    Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills' - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

    Soviet air force losses 1941-1945 - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum


    In fact AAA, groud fire, friendly fire and accident losses a severly underquoted, still don't know why...

    Yesterday i went to "La maison du livre aviation" for secund hand books, there are your quoted books for 5 euros each, despite it's recent publications. So i'm far to be the one of my opinion: some are already throwen out from readers...
    Well i stop now, to want to see you disgused: good reading!

    Regards
     
  20. Juha

    Juha Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    3,734
    Likes Received:
    65
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Helsinki
    #20 Juha, Jun 26, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2010
    I misunderstood Nikademus' message, dug out my copy of BC/RS Vol 2 and checked the data and saw where I made my mistake. 355 aerial claims is the number for the whole year of 1942, very near to the number 358 given in the list made in the HQ of FAF
     
Loading...

Share This Page