History of Jagde Gruppe 52

[al49]

Hi,
if you are interested in the history of JG 52, the Gruppe who totalised 11,000 kills in WW2, I suggest to purchase these two specials of "Battailes Ariennes"

Each booklet, over 120 pages in A4 format, includes a very detailed history of with many b/w pictures and some colour profiles (good for modellers as well)
Text if of course in French.
In europe these are available from specialized book-stores or modellers shops but can also be purchased direct from Le la Press in France
Le catalogue de Avions Bateaux
Cheers
Alberto

 

[Airframes]

Look interesting, thanks Alberto.

 

[Erich]

11,000 kills, hardly ............

check out author Nico Fasts volumes the best available

 

[imalko]

11,000 kills, hardly ............

check out author Nico Fasts volumes the best available

What would be the correct figure for total number of kills of JG 52 then? I'm asking because I don't have the above mentioned book.

 

[al49]

Hi,
according to the books I mentioned above, these were exactly the kills of JG 52

Stab: 100+ kills
I Gruppe: 2,489 kills
II Gruppe: 3,530
III Gruppe: 4,050
13 Slovack/JG 52: 216
15 Croat/JG 52: 300+
For an approximate total of 10,685 victories.
Not to be forgotten that several 100+ aces belonged to JG 52. The book includes their pictures

The first one is Erich Hartmann, with 352 kills.
Cheers
Alberto

 

[Erich]

new evidence points out dramatically that hartmann may have had only 80-100 kills, so if you take this as consideration JG 52 probably had half the number of kills quoted, same goes for JG 51 and 54. many kills over the Ost were not confirmed how could they be when no gun cameras were installed and the fighting was over such open areas when the wingman was not always close or involved with his own air battle it is the pilots viewpoint only.

Furthermore I do not believe that any LW day ace achieved more than 200 kills, same goes for the Nazi Schlachtflieger Rüdel with the myth that he knocked out over 500 Soviet tanks, and mostly likley you can cut this score to half the number.

 

[Milosh]

How many combat losses did the Soviets suffer?

 

[davebender]

That strikes me as odd.

If it was so difficult to verify aircraft kills during 1943 then how is this "new evidence" verifying aircraft kills 60 years after the fact?

 

[imalko]

Yes, I too would like to learn more about this 'new' evidence and how it took 60+ years for them to surface.

Here's one interesting quote (posted earlier on the forum) from an interview with top scoring Slovak ace of WW2 Ján Režňák (whose unit - Letka 13 - flew as a part of JG 52 in 1942/43) when he was asked about authenticity of kills achieved by Slovakian pilots on the Eastern front:

After the war Czechoslovak communists were trying to justify participation of Slovak airmen in war in the East by saying that their air victories were made up, that they had evaded combat and sabotaged German aircraft.

Režňák: That is simply not true. Germans had such sophisticated observation system, that if a dog fight occurred somewhere, they knew about it even before our return to the base. For every aircraft claimed we were obligated to write and sign a statement describing in detail a fight in question. It happened on more than one occasion, that while I was still in the air my air victory was already confirmed. In fact, I have achieved one kill even without a single shot fired. I have engaged in a dog fight above the clouds. Russian pilot tried to escape by diving into the clouds. He haven't saw the ground level and crashed. I was fallowing him. When I saw explosion I'v started to poll-out just in time to save my life. I was credited for destruction of that aircraft, though.

 

[Erich]

odd you guys say, think about it but don't get a headache. soviet archivs have opened so truth be told confirmation can be more accurate for cross checking. funny what total BS we have accepted about the LW fighter gods for so long is not fact at all.........

am sorry but the whole procedure for the LW on counting kills was not as precise as one would believe. the 'new' evidence has been out for some 10 years now, ever considered why there is nothing new to report on the LW jagdgeschwaders except the same old news printed back in the 1970'1980's. when I started working on my JG 301 volume due a relatives involvement I found many interesting and strange comments in it's history which could not be and still is not backed up by factual evidence; this is also the same for the NF unit Kommando Welter which I have been working on for some long years, there is no factual evidence to support the confirmed data by the LW in the records of keeping

 

[al49]

How many combat losses did the Soviets suffer?

Still according to the second of the books presented above, the author, Philippe Saintes, took into due consideration that some recent researches cast a shadow of doubt on German aircraft victories on the Eastern front and to confirm his point, he mention that against a total of about 45,000 Luftwaffe kills in the East, Russian declared a total loss of 46,800 units.
Cheers
Alberto

 

[Nikademus]

Still according to the second of the books presented above, the author, Philippe Saintes, took into due consideration that some recent researches cast a shadow of doubt on German aircraft victories on the Eastern front and to confirm his point, he mention that against a total of about 45,000 Luftwaffe kills in the East, Russian declared a total loss of 46,800 units.
Cheers
Alberto

Love your avatar btw. 6th Stormo yes? Ita unit insignia artwork is nice to look at.

Here's the estimates compiled out of Bergstrom's Black Cross/Red Star volumes 1-3 covering the war up to end 1942.


Soviet

21,200 lost total 6/22/41 - 12/6/41
(10,600 in combat 6/22 - 12/31)
5100 fighters
4600 bombers
600 ground attack
300 other types

German losses 6/22 - 12/6

2093 lost total
568 fighters
758 bombers
170 DB's
330 recon
267 misc


1/42 - 6/42

Soviet losses (ger source)

6976 total
5199 air to air (Author <2:1 overclaim) estimate using a 60% figure = 3120
922 AA
855 on ground (Author 10:1 overclaim) estimate =85

German losses

1170 total
1046 air to air
124 on ground


Finns claim 355 air to air + 103 by AA vs. 34 losses
Ita claim 47 air to air for 10 losses

7/42 - 11/42 losses

Soviet

9100 total (14700 total all causes)
4400 fighters (7000 total)
1600 bombers (2500 total)
1800 ground attack (2600 total)
1300 misc (2600 total)

German

1119 total (100% destroyed)

1026 air to air (850 bombers)
93 ground

 

[VG-33]

Hi Alberto

Hi,
if you are interested in the history of JG 52, the Gruppe who totalised 11,000 kills in WW2, I suggest to purchase these two specials of "Battailes Ariennes"

I think you shouldn't confund Kills and Claims even confirmed or not, ther'e absolutly two different thinks.
There's nothing new or previously unpublished in that book where virtually no efforts are made to browse in soviet archives or work with a russian reasurcher. German claims are well-known since 70ies, no need to spend money for that, except if your'e a JG-52 big fan!

Nice pics, pretty colors. But, in fact, for the historical value it's off present french football (socquer) team level, that's to say...

Once this said, i'v got intention to visit Vigna di Valle museum this year. Can you tell us more?

Regards

VG 33, The FreeFrench!

 

[riacrato]

It's the same debate everytime.

claims > awarded kills > real kills

...with varying ratios. And 2-3:1 (or more) is nothing out of the ordinary. Nothing dramatical about it at all.

 

[al49]

Hi Alberto


I think you shouldn't confund Kills and Claims even confirmed or not, ther'e absolutly two different thinks.
There's nothing new or previously unpublished in that book where virtually no efforts are made to browse in soviet archives or work with a russian reasurcher. German claims are well-known since 70ies, no need to spend for that, except if your'e a JG-52 big fan!

Nice pics, pretty colors. In fact for the historical value it's off present french football (socquer) team level, that's to say...

this said, where are you living, i'v got intention to visit Vigna di Valle museum this year. Can you tell us more?

Regards

VG 33, The FreeFrench!

OK, here is where translation may lead to misunderstanding or errors.
On page 103 of the second book, the French term used is "victoires" that should correctly translate into "victories", but in many occasions the author use the German term "Abschuss" that should translate into "kill" but I'm not sure because I don't know German.
In any case, I bought these two books because I'm on vacation and I have a lot of time to dedicate to reading.

About the French soccer team, its value isn't much less then the Italian, at least for this time.

I live in Milan and, so far, I never been in Vigna di Valle but I I've been told that is very interesting.
Cheers
Alberto

 

[VG-33]

Hi

new evidence points out dramatically that hartmann may have had only 80-100 kills, so if you take this as consideration JG 52 probably had half the number of kills quoted, same goes for JG 51 and 54.

Hazanov had just took the average Luftwaffe overclaim 1:3 to 1:5 in mean 43-45 airbattles in the eastern front and applied it to Hartman.
It's uncorrect, since some famous aces as Grislawski or Graff had their results confirmed for about 65-70% to more than 80% from soviet archives. It's why they were choosen by CF Gueust, Bergstorm indeed.
For some others pathologic overclaimers as Rudorffer, Weissnberger, Lang browsing russian archives is just as usefull as trusting water with a sword; a big wastage of time and money.
Hartman is probably of that category considering his own and his unit overclaim in some days of Jassy-Kichenev Battle (17 confirmed claims for 2 P-39 lost from archives) events. But it's too short to extrapolate that to all his career.

many kills over the Ost were not confirmed how could they be when no gun cameras were installed and the fighting was over such open areas when the wingman was not always close or involved with his own air battle it is the pilots viewpoint only.

I gess gun cameras are sometimes limiting the overclaim. One day Muller shoot down 6 soviet planes over Murmansk all confirmed by his wingman. There were bloody frog you could't see your own nose on soviet airfieds that day from russian archives, and not single flight was made...(From Y Rybine works)

Furthermore I do not believe that any LW day ace achieved more than 200 kills, same goes for the Nazi Schlachtflieger Rüdel with the myth that he knocked out over 500 Soviet tanks, and mostly likley you can cut this score to half the number.

Don't think so, from:

Junkers Ju.87G Stuka

The best hit probability from NII-VVS-RKKA trials/studies does not overcome 0.02-0.03 for a T-34 attacked by a Ju-87G with 37 mm with wolfram core bullets on immobile tanks. With no air, no ground opposition, no smoke, no turbulencies, no wind gradient, no stress...
That sighify: for damaging (not destroying, it's far from that!!) a sole T-34 you need at last 50 Ju-87G attacks (a full Geschwader!!!).
Moreover from published soviet afterwar statistics no more than 2.4% of soviet tank losses were due to planes in general.
Rudel real success issued from statistical display, should turn around 40-60 tanks and SU/ASU baddly hitted and damaged. Some of them written off.


Regards

 

[tango35]

Gentleman,
the german system of air victory recognition and the later recognition of a victory for a pilot was very strict, so where are the proof - and i mean a real proof , not a proof based on propaganda material and later transcript - otherwise we can write the history of all documents in air war new. Or do e.g. the 332nd FG really not lost bomber under their escort ? a lie, but a nice own. Or are all aliied air victories confirmed if a german airplanes went to sea; the pilot received an air victory without a proof.

 

[VG-33]

Hi

Gentleman,
the german system of air victory recognition and the later recognition of a victory for a pilot was very strict,

The german 21 points system was strict, the soviet one was even stricter, the question is with what "strictity" were they applied? Not very much it seems.

Red Mueller episode again.

so where are the proof - and i mean a real proof , not a proof based on propaganda material and later transcript - otherwise we can write the history of all documents in air war new.

The proof is in the archives of the other side. Of course they need to be compleete, no 100% garantee but it's VERY CLOSE to it from soviet side in 43-45 years, even overquoted since same planes could be mentionned lost in war diaries for many different times. See Krivosheiev and Alexeïev works. The Balance is round zero at 1-3% accuracy. No planes are stolen by martiens in twighlight zone in soviet archives like you can often find in german ones, even in quatermeister that's supposed to be the most complete. I mean the german plane was one day, and later wasn't: no loose, no write-off, no accident documents.
I undestand german methodology is different, there's no natural " wear and tear" losses in acounts, since it's not a loss to them, but they are in soviet acounts. So many questions reminds about the faith of disappeared "from the archives" german planes.

From Patric Facon, JY Lorant and CJE conversations, men that worked in german archives for long time.

 

[VG-33]

Still according to the second of the books presented above, the author, Philippe Saintes, took into due consideration that some recent researches cast a shadow of doubt on German aircraft victories on the Eastern front and to confirm his point, he mention that against a total of about 45,000 Luftwaffe kills in the East, Russian declared a total loss of 46,800 units.
Cheers
Alberto

Philippe Saintes should try to understand he's telling about before wrighting or publishing.

46 100 are the GHQ numbers (Krivosheiev)
43 300 are military plane losses, the diffrerence is made by night "civilian" Po-2, R-5, Li-2, TB-3, C-47... planes lost that are nothing to do with JG-52 claims.



Mid 70ies, it was a well known fact that german claimed about 70 000 planes, destroyed 45 000 of them for the Lufr, the others for Flak.

More precise datas make 48 000+ claims for Luftwaffe (nightJG, Stuka, Bombers, Schl...) in total 45 000 claims for Jagdwaffe only.

You add 5-7000 more from, both AAA and geman allies aviation claims.

So even if we take 45 000 to 45 000 it is not making a 0% overclaim.

Cause a german claim to be validated from soviet, american, british or belgian losses database should fullfill:

1) day and time conditions

2) place, location conditions

3) type condition, i understand you can take a MiG-3 for a LaGG or a Yak. But a I-153 for a TB-3 or an Il-4 that begins to be at limits...

In that case, it reminds very few ot them


Some examples:

Rudolf Mueller: claims vs actual 'kills' - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

Soviet air force losses 1941-1945 - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum


In fact AAA, groud fire, friendly fire and accident losses a severly underquoted, still don't know why...

Yesterday i went to "La maison du livre aviation" for secund hand books, there are your quoted books for 5 euros each, despite it's recent publications. So i'm far to be the one of my opinion: some are already throwen out from readers...
Well i stop now, to want to see you disgused: good reading!

Regards

 

[Juha]

I misunderstood Nikademus' message, dug out my copy of BC/RS Vol 2 and checked the data and saw where I made my mistake. 355 aerial claims is the number for the whole year of 1942, very near to the number 358 given in the list made in the HQ of FAF