Ho229 V3 at NASM Garber Facility

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by twoeagles, Nov 1, 2006.

  1. twoeagles

    twoeagles Member

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    Two years ago my son was given a backyard tour of the Paul Garber
    restoration facility, a perk since he was majoring in military history
    at the Naval Academy (how fun was that!?). I asked him to look for
    the Ho229 in particular, and with his film based Canon Elph he snapped
    one picture, and it isn't great, but here you go. Ho229 V3, for real.
    He said it looked as one would expect of a plywood plane sitting damp
    for 60 years. Again, my apologies for picture quality - it is a scan from
    the 4 by 6 print he mailed to me.
     

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  2. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
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    I wish they finally would restore the damn thing, I would love to see it!
     
  3. R-2800

    R-2800 Member

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    i know i really hope they will restore it before it wasts away along with many others they have in storage, but at least they have it.
     
  4. Twitch

    Twitch Member

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    Wherever Henk is these days, he knows I think. Believe he mentioned reading that a favorable decision had been made for its restoration.

    They almost didn't have it either. Way back when museum procurers were visiting a salvage yard, I think in Chicago, to acquire a couple other planes and the guy matter-of-factly asks if they want "that old Germam flying wing we got." [​IMG]
     
  5. delcyros

    delcyros Well-Known Member

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    ...true.

    The Berlin restauration group around techn. museum, which already has experience with other Horten flying wing restaurations put forwards two years ago the suggestion to also restaurate the Ho-229 V3 from Depot Silver Hill.
    Problem for negotiations was that this is a very expensive task, and Berlin isn´t going to do it without reward, of course.
    A restauration has to conservate the plane for the next 80 years and little documentation is left ourdays.
    The Jumo´s are very problematic but they already have some left in stock, I think. Don´t know how well they are preserved in the original, however.
     
  6. twoeagles

    twoeagles Member

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    Also on display is this engine which I believe is a Jumo, but I am far from
    expert on this. Perhaps someone can weigh in.
     

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  7. delcyros

    delcyros Well-Known Member

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    As You may see, it doesn´t have the steep increase in engine diameter typical for radial jet engines, so it´s axial layout.
    Details of the engine covering strikingly point to Junkers.
    This indeed is a late model Jumo-004B4 jet engine.
    check out this pages for comparings:
    http://xplanes.free.fr/lavo/images/junkers_jumo004_05.jpg
    http://www.geocities.com/h_zoeller/jumo004_a1.jpg

    The BMW-003 looks a bit different, mostly due to the lube tanks moved to the engine nose and the accelerator valve and other details:
    http://library.thinkquest.org/C006001/engines/bmw0031.jpg


    cheers,
     
  8. Henk

    Henk Active Member

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    Ok I talked to one of the people of the NASM and he explained to me that they are waiting for there facility that is being build and then restore her and that donations would be very appreciated since it would be very expensive to restore her.

    I wrote to a magazine all about aircraft I get every month and told them about the Horten 229 V3 that is at the NASM and gave them a few pics I had of her there and info and they published it and the response from the public was amazing. They said that the aircraft should be brought here so that our museums here wich have very few WW2 aircraft can restore her and put her on display since a aircraft that is one of a kind should not be left like that.

    The person of the NASM said it would still be 6-7 years before she could be started on since their facility is being build.

    I breaks my heart to se her like that and makes me mad every time I see her there in that state.

    More info on the plane and pics I posted here. http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aircraft-requests/horton-brothers-flying-wings-3618.html
     
  9. johnbr

    johnbr Well-Known Member

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    I now that the ho 229 was up for restoration there top restore had just done the front of the B29.He told me that they where to start work on it in 3 weeks he was Reilly looking forward to restoring it.I told him that I do not think the wings they have are the wings for the V3 I think they a pair of test wings.
     
  10. delcyros

    delcyros Well-Known Member

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    What kinds of hint do You have for this estimation?
    So far, the only other wings fallen into US hands were those of the glider V1, which are easy to distinguish from those of the V2.
    Other segments fallen into us hands late in april 45, but none have been worked far enough to receive Werknummern.

    Cheers,
     
  11. johnbr

    johnbr Well-Known Member

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    One there is no tanks in the wings and I was told that the wings have a lot mising in then.When I told them about my thought about them the head of the nasm said that it was possible.
     
  12. delcyros

    delcyros Well-Known Member

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    That´s maybe an interesting question.
    Could be, but I have to doublecheck this.

    Here some relative quotes from chief constructeur Reimar Horten:

    "The main box spare contained all cables and controll rods TO FREE THE REMAINING SPACE OF THE WING FOR FUEL" (R. Horten, Nurflügel, 5th edition (Graz 1993), page 134)
    -This is from the shorter english summery, in german, the author is more concrete:"(...) Wir wollten aus Gewichtsgründen und um ein größeres Volumen für den Treibstofftank zu bekommen, DEN GANZEN INNENRAUM DES FLÜGELS ALS TANK VERWENDEN. Voraussetzung dafür war der kraftstofffeste Leim...(...)" (ebd., page 134)
    I translate: Because of weight concerns and in order to get a larger fuel bunkerage, we wanted TO USE THE WHOLE INNER SPACE OF THE WING AS FUEL TANK. Precondition for this was the fuel resistant glue agent
    this statement implys that there is no fuel tank at all, the whole space is used as fuel tank without the fuel boxes, typical for other planes.
    but regarding the Ho-229V-2 (translation):
    "(...)The outer wing was all wood made, BUT THE FUEL TANKS WERE MADE FROM ALUMINIUM. The fuel resistent glue agent from Dr. Pinten, Dynamit Nobel AG, was not yet ready in the quantity required, so that we had to send a curier to Troisdorf." - (ebd. page 141)
    - This statement underlines, that the V-2 -opposing original plans- had fuel tanks implemented into the wing because they couldn´t get the required amount of fuel resistent glue agents. I expect that much of the construction of the V-2 powered plane was done in a hurry.

    This ultimately brings us back to Your information, John.
    In case You have seen a wing without fuel tanks we do have two possibilities:
    1.) It is the wing of a Ho-229 V1 proptotype, which indeed had - as the original conception asked for- no fuel tanks. The wings of the 1st prototype have fallen into US hands at Brandis airport in mid april 45. But the wings of both prototypes (V1 and V3 respectively) have slightly different sizes because of the major redesign following the delivery of the Jumo-004B engines.
    2.) It is indeed the wing of the V3. But in this case, they seems to have gotten the fuel resistant glue agent in the required quantity to build all-tank wings, a previously unknown aspect and a major difference between V-2 and V-3.

    cheers,
     
  13. Henk

    Henk Active Member

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    Like mentioned above.

    The wings were intended to be fitted to the V3 but were found on a other site by the US army and no wings were found at the site where they were busy building the Ho-229 V3 and the fact that the V2 prototype were destroyed in the crash that killed the test pilot the wings can not be from it. The Ho-229 V1 glider prototype were very smaller than the V2 and the V3 and were captured by the Russians and later destroyed by them and thus can not be from her and she was intact when they captured her.

    So I would agree with you delcyros about the wings and all my info proofs it.
     
  14. Henk

    Henk Active Member

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    This is the article they printed in the magazine I wrote about the Ho-229. They changed a lot of stuff "according to their sources".

     
  15. delcyros

    delcyros Well-Known Member

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    Dear Henk, there are a lot of myths around about the Ho-229.
    I don´t want to critizise You as all this indeed can be found on the Internet but this doesn´t mean that it´s true.
    Let me correct some minor points, friend.

    The actual wingspan of the Ho-I "D-Hangwind" (also named "Alexander Lippisch") was 12,40 m, the empty weight about 120 Kg (264 lbs). It should be noted, that there was ABSOLUTELY NO SECRECY about the Ho-I, since I have some press prints about it´s participation of the "BONN-Hangelar Großflugtag 1934(!)" events. The plane never participated in the Rhön gliding competitions (something the later models did, only) and wasn´t burnt because of secrecy but simply because they found nobody (sounds silly but this is exactly what Dr. Horten wrote in his book...) to care about the plane. The Hortens themselves had no space for the plane and the design criteria showed that the wing wasn´t able for disassembling for transports so they HAD TO BURN IT anyway.

    Best gliding path of the Ho-2 glider was 1:24@ 72 Km/h; sink rate 0.70 m/sec @ 60 km/h. Wingspan was 16,50m, altough these values varied from variant to varient with the powered versions mentioned by You have been heavier and not that streamlined. The Ho-II also had no secrecy, maiden flight was in May 1935 at Bonn-Hangelar. It should be noted that the Ho-II was fully able to aerial acrobatics and used in this manner with statisfaction by Hanna Reitsch and others. Dr. Alexander Lippisch coworked with the Hortens on some major wing calculation works, from which the airplane greatly benefitted in comparison to the Ho-I (bell shaped lift distribution made it stable in flight).
    A small 59 Kw HM 60R engine drove the powered Ho-IIm variant, which had a sink rate of 0.85 m/s and a max take off weight of 450 Kg. Despite the low poweroutput it climbed 3000 ft in 2 1/2 min and retained full acrobatic performances. A small "Habicht"-series of Ho-II L gliders followed
    The conventional "Hols der Teufel"-glider followed in 1936. It was a testbed for an entirely synthetic material plane usinf Mipolan, Astralon and Phenol.
    It was the worlds first "plastic plane".
    The Ho-Va, still not noticed by the RLM, seems to have stood in relation to the "Hols der Teufel", since it featured synthetic construction materials and twin engines (HM60R). Altough Horten doesn´t explicitely tell when the design work begun, I conclude that this happened somewhen in mid 1938, with constrcution works starting in 1939.
    (to be continued)
     
  16. Henk

    Henk Active Member

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    I know what you mean I told them about their mistakes, but they said that their sources were correct. I did not give them that info I gave them facts and they printed this instead.
     
  17. delcyros

    delcyros Well-Known Member

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    Ok, that I understand, Henk. Iam sorry for You and these troubles.
    I suggest You to read Hortens book. It is primarely written in german but it contains and english summery for each chapter. A lot of first hand information and it also covers a good deal of the aerodynamic problems caused by flying wing concepts. It worth a read.
     
  18. Twitch

    Twitch Member

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    At any rate when it is done it will be well worth seeing:)
     
  19. Henk

    Henk Active Member

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    Would love to read it in German though.
     
  20. twoeagles

    twoeagles Member

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    I wonder if the Horten brothers ever dreamed how far their innovations would
    be carried? In the November issue of Combat Aircraft, an article on Lockheed
    Martin's new Skunk Works Division UAV, called "Polecat", is described as
    deriving "inspiration for its design from the Horten flying wings." No higher
    praise than imitation.
     
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