How good dogfighter was the Mosquito?

[buffnut453]

Just for reference, there were 3 Blenheim bomber OTUs (12, 13 and 17) that started ops in April 1940....and that doesn't include Coastal Command OTUs etc. The OTUs trained up crews that emerged from advanced flying training courses, and formed the transition to operational squadrons. The OTUs did fly actual operations as part of the training syllabus.

 

[BiffF15]

Hey Biff,

Surely the point in WW2 is getting out of visual range, regardless of whether you're flying at night or in daytime? Or at least getting far enough away so that, coupled with acceleration/speed, the enemy fighter can't get to you?

I'd be absolutely astounded if Blenheim navigators weren't trained during the OTU phase in determining whether or not a gaggle of EA constituted a threat. As you point out, failure to train to that would result in even worse loss rates. By the time the Mossie entered service, the RAF had 3 years of operational experience in Blenheims and I just don't think it's realistic to assume the navigators were incapable of accurately reporting threats to the pilot.

Again, I'm not suggesting it's smart for a Mossie to tangle with a SE fighter. However, given the operational areas, particularly for the anti-shipping strikes, and given the operational experience of the RAF at the time, I find it really hard to believe that the navs weren't capable of working with the pilot to spot and report threats.

Going back to the F-15E for a second, I was at RAF Honington when the first Strike Eagles arrived just up the road at Lakenheath. At that time, the UK's low flying areas were something of a wild west. Any military aircraft flying in the LFAs was deemed a suitable target to be bounced by any other military aircraft in the area. This was not pre-coordinated but simply arranged on the fly with the appropriate ATC. After the F-15Es arrived, several RAF squadrons attempted to bounce them only to be told "knock it off". Shortly after, we had a liaison visit from some Strike Eagle crews. When asked why they refused to engage with the bounce, they responded that they were still trying to figure out how to fight the aircraft...apparently the MFDs had so many levels and configurations that the WSOs were getting "lost" in the software...and doing that at 250ft altitude was a BAAAAD thing! Happy days....

Cheers,
B-N

B-N,

I'm sure you are right that they did receive some training, but to what extent I can only guess. Since they weren't in turning fights everyday (Mossies) my guess it would be not much more than academics and maybe a familiarization flight or two. A guy pointing at or running a visual intercept on you is a threat. If you can't get away, or are caught by a guy approaching or in a gun WEZ, that's were it gets tough. What do you, when do you do it, how long do you do it, can you get away, are all things that take more than a ride or 5 to get decent at, and that's being taught by guys proficient at doing it.

The F-111 guys had VERY little academics or training with missile shooting fighters. We were with an EF-111 squadron in the Desert (flying combat sorties over Iraq), and gave them academics and trained with them so they would understand what they could get away with or not.

The new F-15Es at the "Lake" were originally staffed mostly with guys converting from F-111s, or in other words guys with little to no air to air experience. The low fly areas all over Europe, particularly in Germany were most definitely the wild wild west. I have heard some great stories. I've flown in Europe, (2000-2001) timeframe and the low flies were all but gone. However, I started to tangle with two German F-4s (ATC built a pop up MOA around us - coolest thing ever) but they bingo'd out approaching the merge. I definitely prefer the military controllers over there vice what we have here, much more mil centric "help" on the other side of the pond.

Biff

 

[Vincenzo]

5x1.5 = 7.5 < 8

but afaik, and came from this forum, the german safe moltiplicator was 1.8

 

[Admiral Beez]

Greg's right, you can't really compare the Mosquito and P-38, the latter was designed specifically as a fighter interceptor, whereas the Mosquito wasn't.

How about the DH Hornet?

 

[wuzak]

How about the DH Hornet?

Yes, that can be compared to the P-38.

It was a single seat (most variants), twin engine fighter.

It was also slightly smaller, was slightly lighter and had a significant performance advantage.

 

[GrauGeist]

Vision to the rear was not great.

So much so that sometimes the navigator/radio operator would turn around and kneel on his seat to look back.

I can only imagine the poor bastard kneeling in the seat when he suddenly spots an Me262 tearing out of the overcast and closing fast, forcing the pilot to break hard.

 

[SaparotRob]

I can only imagine the poor bastard kneeling in the seat when he suddenly spots an Me262 tearing out of the overcast and closing fast, forcing the pilot to break hard.

Then it is kneeling in prayer.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Then it is kneeling in prayer.

You deserve bacon on that as well!

 

[GrauGeist]

Then it is kneeling in prayer.

Hard to kneel in prayer when you're bouncing all over like a pachinko ball!

 

[Admiral Beez]

What about the Mosquito suffering from fuel cutout when pulling negative-G manoeuvres? That was the cause of the air show crash in Australia, and an issue with all early Merlin fighters, partially addressed with Miss Shilling's orifice, and then later with improved carburetors. Was this issue addressed in later versions of the Mosquito? Did the Mosquito not get the improved carburetors that the later Spitfires, Mustangs, etc. received? If not, this would be an issue for its fighter ability.

Either way, you have to love the look of the Mosquito fighter variant.



Not intending to trigger our resident contrarians but just imagine this Mossie over Malaya, Burma and the South Pacific in 1941-42.

 

[nuuumannn]

How about the DH Hornet?

I did mention it in my post, but a Hornet is not a Mosquito. The two don't share much structurally, just a common lineage.

 

[GregP]

How about the DH Hornet?

The DH Hornet didn't make WWII, so it really isn't a good comparison with the P-38. It was introduced in 1946 and the P-38 was all but retired by 1946. A very few hung around until about 1949 in the USAF, but they weren't front-line airplanes after WWII. We were all into jets after 1945.

 

[Vincenzo]

Mustang and AU-1 were not used in Korea?

 

[Shortround6]

Not intending to trigger our resident contrarians but just imagine this Mossie over Malaya, Burma and the South Pacific in 1941-42.

Well, the resident contrarians are having trouble with Mossies showing up over England in 1941, let alone having them show up the Far East.
First Delivery of a Mosquito fighter was in Jan 1942 to No 157 squadron.
NF MK IIs composed 21 of the the original order for 50 Aircraft.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Does anyone have any numbers on Mossie fighter kills vs losses?

 

[BlackSheep]

Plus having two pairs of eyes with the canopy affording (essentially) all-round visibility is something of an advantage. I'm not saying the Mossie was a dogfighter but I think the 2-man crew was more of an advantage than a disadvantage if it did have to engage.

I read an article interviewing a Skyraider pilot in VietNam talking about sometimes having to fly the two-seater alone and that it was always a problem trying to see over the co-pilot position. We're Mossies always flown with the navigator?

 

[Milosh]

Mossie link DH home

 

[Admiral Beez]

Mossie link DH home

Thanks for posting.

Mosquito, Lancaster and Spitfire. With this trio in numbers Britain is set.

 

[BiffF15]

Thanks for posting.

Mosquito, Lancaster and Spitfire. With this trio in numbers Britain is set.

No groundhog?

 

[SaparotRob]

(Dakota)