SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Me262
How good dogfighter was the Mosquito?
- Thread starter spicmart
- Start date
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Admiral Beez
Captain
Piston powered.
What the hell is wrong with my abilities to communicate simple ideas today? Am I just stupid?
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
No. This time I'm the dummy.
buffnut453
Captain
In 1940, all of them, same in 1941 because there were no Mosquitos. By the time the Ta 154 was becoming an actual airplane D-Day was over. In the mid war period planes like the Mosquito, B-25 and 26 P-38 and P-51 and P-47 arrived with no real match up from Germany that was the big difference along with thousands of four engined bombers for use day and night.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I'd go with either the He219 or Ju88C/G
Shortround6
Major General
Me 210C in the spring of 1943?
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,219
- Jan 31, 2021
Yep. That's why they had to water the lawn.See? A glorious day of sunshine and clear skies!
GregP
Major
I am wondering why so many people want to apply what we already know about WWII (therefore, hindsight, which, as we all know, has 20-20 vision) to production fantasies during early WWII as a "what-if."
I say production fantasies because if Great Britain had the capacity to manufacture only the aircraft they wanted, then they would have had no use for all the aircraft they GOT. The entire reason they got P-38s (without turbos and same-turning props) and French Hawks, P-400s, etc. is precisely because their aircraft-production capacity was insufficient for their needs. There were barely enough Spitfires to keep flying them during the Battle of Britain.
Suddenly taking away all the aircraft they got and used in real life does NOT somehow conjure up production capacity that wasn't in existence.
I say production fantasies because if Great Britain had the capacity to manufacture only the aircraft they wanted, then they would have had no use for all the aircraft they GOT. The entire reason they got P-38s (without turbos and same-turning props) and French Hawks, P-400s, etc. is precisely because their aircraft-production capacity was insufficient for their needs. There were barely enough Spitfires to keep flying them during the Battle of Britain.
Suddenly taking away all the aircraft they got and used in real life does NOT somehow conjure up production capacity that wasn't in existence.
Shortround6
Major General
A little bit harsh?
A lot of what the British wound up getting in 1940 and 1941 were contracts they took over from the French.
Granted the British were buying a lot of stuff from the US on their own so you are right, British manufacturing could not supply either the needed designs or the needed numbers (although there were several thousand British aircraft that didn't do much of anything for the British war effort except give them the illusion they doing something.)
A lot of what the British wound up getting in 1940 and 1941 were contracts they took over from the French.
Granted the British were buying a lot of stuff from the US on their own so you are right, British manufacturing could not supply either the needed designs or the needed numbers (although there were several thousand British aircraft that didn't do much of anything for the British war effort except give them the illusion they doing something.)
GregP
Major
Definitely not trying to be harsh.
But, I've seen people claiming that if only the Brits had manufactured all airplane X and Y and Z, then things would have been better.
Sometimes things COULD be manufactured by everyone. That happens when the aircraft is the result of government proposal. Then the design is owned by the government. In the U.S.A., we could have done that with, say, the P-40. But the P-51 was NOT owned by the U.S. government.
In Great Britain, the Mosquito was a private development by de Havilland, not the result of an RFP to an Air Ministry spec. So, de Havilland owned the Mosquito rights. Also, I doubt seriously if anyone in the Air Ministry wanted to abandon Aluminum airplanes and go back to wood and fabric ... so it was never going to be all that widely built. They found out that the wood Mosquito didn't take very well to tropical climes from structural failures caused by tropical heat and humidity. It was a wonder, to be sure ... not a tropical wonder in particular, and was never going to be built in quantities of 20,000 regardless of WHO wanted it.
In the event, they built what was thought to be prudent and the number so-built generated very good results. Better than expected by the people who designed it even.
Alternate history theories always sound good exactly because they don't play out, only to fail in real life. So, when there is no perceived downside, the theory starts to sound pretty good. One of the true-to-life rules of thumb in combat is that carefully laid-out attack or defense plans rarely survive initial contact. In this case, there was no real-life possible way to eliminate all the airplane makers designing their own responses to requests for proposals resulting in fly-offs.
If it happened that way, perhaps the war would have been lost by tens of thousands of Rocs and Skuas losing the fight.
But, I've seen people claiming that if only the Brits had manufactured all airplane X and Y and Z, then things would have been better.
Sometimes things COULD be manufactured by everyone. That happens when the aircraft is the result of government proposal. Then the design is owned by the government. In the U.S.A., we could have done that with, say, the P-40. But the P-51 was NOT owned by the U.S. government.
In Great Britain, the Mosquito was a private development by de Havilland, not the result of an RFP to an Air Ministry spec. So, de Havilland owned the Mosquito rights. Also, I doubt seriously if anyone in the Air Ministry wanted to abandon Aluminum airplanes and go back to wood and fabric ... so it was never going to be all that widely built. They found out that the wood Mosquito didn't take very well to tropical climes from structural failures caused by tropical heat and humidity. It was a wonder, to be sure ... not a tropical wonder in particular, and was never going to be built in quantities of 20,000 regardless of WHO wanted it.
In the event, they built what was thought to be prudent and the number so-built generated very good results. Better than expected by the people who designed it even.
Alternate history theories always sound good exactly because they don't play out, only to fail in real life. So, when there is no perceived downside, the theory starts to sound pretty good. One of the true-to-life rules of thumb in combat is that carefully laid-out attack or defense plans rarely survive initial contact. In this case, there was no real-life possible way to eliminate all the airplane makers designing their own responses to requests for proposals resulting in fly-offs.
If it happened that way, perhaps the war would have been lost by tens of thousands of Rocs and Skuas losing the fight.
The fantasy reverse engineers history and transfers all that was known in 1945 back to 1933 (except jet engines of course) such that by 1940 every engine is a Merlin and British twin save the Wellington is a Mosquito. To come true the British would have to have someone more fanatical than Adolf himself, set on a war starting in 1939.
Shortround6
Major General
to further your observation.
From Old machine press so I take no credit except to bold the dates.
"In July 1937, Hawker proposed two Camm-designed aircraft—the N-type and the R-type, named for their respective Napier and Rolls-Royce powerplants. The Air Ministry told Hawker to wait until an official request was issued, which came in March 1938 in the form of Specification F.18/37 seeking a fighter capable of 400 mph (644 km/h) at 20,000 ft (6,096 m). Hawker was notified in August 1938 that they had won the design contest for Specification F.18/37, and two prototypes of each N-type and R-type were ordered. However, an official contract was not issued until December 1938."
The Tornado prototype was built at the experimental shop in Hawker's in Kingston, but it was sent to Hawker's new facility in Langley for final assembly in July 1939. The Vulture II engine was delivered in September 1939, and ground tests were started later that month.
In Dec of 1938 two RAF squadrons had received Spitfires but not even the first squadron (which got it's first plane in Aug 1938) had been declared operational yet.
At what point does one pick the Spitfire to be the single engine fighter that should be the only single fighter (and bomber) to be produced in England and the Commonwealth?
It requires the knowledge that the Tornado and the Typhoon and more importantly, the 3 major engines designed to replace the Merlin will ALL encounter several years of trouble.
Admiral Beez
Captain
What of the Japanese and Italians? What twins do they have to dogfight the Mosquito?
The Ki-83 and Ki-96 never made it into production, but there is the Kawasaki Ki-45 and Nakajima J1N. The best the Italians seem to have is the Ro.57.
What twin-seat, twin-engined piston fighter do the Americans or Soviets have during WW2 than can match the fighter Mosquito? The Northrop P-61 is usually a three seater, and the F-82 Twin Mustang was a post-war idea.
I find the postwar Argentine clone, the I.Ae. 24 Calquin interesting.
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The KI-45 was good, but I don't feel good enough to catch a NF Mossie.
The KI-46, on the otherhand, would be my pick.
As far as Italian twins, I'd say the SM.91, which showed great promise, but never went past two built because of Italy's capitulation.
The Merlin was due to be replaced by bigger engines. The Spitfire and Hurricane were due to be replaced by better bigger designs. The "Merlin" shadow factories were actually just shadow factories, if war had come later they would have made different engines. As far as I know the Mosquito was the only bomber that was designed for the Merlin and even then there was a Sabre powered proposal. The Halifax and Lancaster werent at the start. There was almost no enthusiasm for the Mosquito to do anything, possibly the success (or lack of failure) of unarmed PR Spitfires helped it being ordered as a PR machine at the start.
Shortround6
Major General
Granted that the Speed Spitfire showed the potential of the basic Merlin engine in 1938 (the ability to run for 10 hours or more at over 1600HP ?) that does not mean the Merlin could make war wining power at that time or anywhere in the near future. Getting 2100hp at sea level using racing fuel also means quite difference from making 1475hp at 22,000ft on aviation gasoline.
Hooker needs to redesign the singe stage supercharger 1st, then design the 2 stage supercharger and then you also need 100/130 fuel to get it run right and then you go along with all the little bits and pieces that allowed it to survive at 18lbs boost at 22,000ft.
An awful to bet the old homestead on in 1938-39 or even 1940.
Hooker needs to redesign the singe stage supercharger 1st, then design the 2 stage supercharger and then you also need 100/130 fuel to get it run right and then you go along with all the little bits and pieces that allowed it to survive at 18lbs boost at 22,000ft.
An awful to bet the old homestead on in 1938-39 or even 1940.
Having bet the homestead in 1936-38, with factories churning out Merlins Mosquitos Spitfires and Hurricanes in 1939 if war doesnt start in 1939 you may have to start it yourself in 1940
