Snautzer01
Marshal
- 46,292
- Mar 26, 2007
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Liberation of France took 2 years. The liberation of Czechoslovakia took until 1992. You do not seem to remember how it was there.Slovak Prime Minister Robert Fico on a local TV and radio company - about a trip to Moscow for the 80th anniversary of Victory:
- Do you have any information about who, besides you, of the European leaders, will go to Moscow in May?
- I'm not one of those monkeys who thinks about whether someone will go or not. I'm not worried about whether someone will go or not. This is the 80th anniversary of the end of World War II and the victory over fascism.
- Aren't you worried about being there alone?
- Mr. Editor, what respect do we show these people? Where did this freedom come from in Slovakia? Did she come from Norway? Or from Africa? Or did she come from the West? After all, freedom came to Slovakia clearly from the east, and all the peoples who were part of the Red Army suffered incredibly.
- What kind of signal does this send to our society?
- I am sending a signal that I understand who played a decisive role in the Second World War. Without the former Soviet Union, Hitler would never have been defeated. This is the first one. And secondly, the Red Army played a decisive role in the liberation of the whole of Czechoslovakia. So why didn't you scream when I was at the Normandy anniversary? I went there and why didn't you ask me that question then? Why didn't you tell me then, Fico, what you were doing there? Well, of course, it's completely different for you.
If he said that, Fico wouldn't have received his payola.Mr. Fico should also remember that without the West and Lend Lease the Soviet forces may not have faired so well. Additionally without the Mediterranean and Western Front in 1943 and 1944, the German's could have concentrated many more forces and resources to the Eastern Front.
The defeat of Germany was a complete Allied effort, let's not forget that.
Mr. Fico should also remember that without the West and Lend Lease the Soviet forces may not have faired so well. Additionally without the Mediterranean and Western Front in 1943 and 1944, the German's could have concentrated many more forces and resources to the Eastern Front.
The defeat of Germany was a complete Allied effort, let's not forget that.
Agreed. I will never minimize the effort or sacrifice of the Red Army. The Soviets played a massive part. But all in all it took an "Allied Effort" to win the war.
...or simply deleted as an attempt of Russian political propaganda here.Possibly it could be moved...
Certainly. It is a typical way of modern Russian propaganda to refer to the words of any weird West politicians (usually sponsored by Putin). What made Fico think anyone would forget something? Who gave him the right to insult European leaders? Moreover, many people still remember very well on whose side the Slovaks fought before 1943 (or even 1944) - as well as the Tiso laws under which Jews in Slovakia were sent to death camps.I cannot say whether it was intended as Russian propaganda or not on the part of Texnuk (or on the part of Fico for that matter),
May be.but (I think) it is a newsworthy event.
Wehrmacht, not Luftwaffe.Also, although I can see where the replies are coming from, we should not forget that the Soviets did destroy the majority of the German army and air force
This is well known - at least, in Europe. It should be mentioned that the high Soviet casualties were partly due to abysmal command at all levels.(I have seen many different numbers but they usually seem to hover around 70%) while taking huge losses (again the numbers vary a lot, but probably a minimum of around 8M-9M military personnel?) - said losses suffered by the US/UK/French in the ETO&MTO (~750,000 total military personnel?) seeming small in comparison.
Sometimes I think that any attempts to be impartial and objective only serve to infiltrate the most disgusting Russian propaganda.I say all of the above in spite of the fact that I would cheerfully help with the removal of Putin (and any other parties responsible for the invasion of Ukraine) from this reality.
Sometimes I think that any attempts to be impartial and objective only serve to infiltrate the most disgusting Russian propaganda.
re
To a degree I agree, but to ignore the Soviet sacrifice in WWII is to demean that sacrifice to some extent, which is (I think) wrong - regardless of the current situation. The fact that some militaries were/are ineptly led (or even inept as individuals) does not change their level of sacrifice in the overall sense - or what point in the level of competence vs number of military personnel killed does it become proper to honor their sacrifice?
Thump,I don't think anyone should disparage the Soviet soldier. They were as shit-bound as Japanese or USMC troops and in many cases just as hellbound.
Thump,
I don't disparage any of them. The common soldier has no choice about going to war. That is unfortunately done by someone who usually has never had skin in that game.
Cheers,
Biff
I'm from Russia, I'm new here. Hello. I agree with your words, but in 1941 the advantage of the size of the Soviet AF was even greater than in 1944. But it is worth comparing the known number of combat flight of pilots and aircraft.Eastern Front Aircraft Strength and Losses 1941-45
Even with massive numerical advantage and newer fighter types, the exchange rate for the Soviets against the Luftwaffe was not much better in 1943-44, than it was in 1941.
Not a stupid question - but also think Kittyhawk. While my Dad was at Vaenga they had some P40's shipped in (PQ-18 or before). One did a wheels up. The Russians lifted it up and rested it on 3, 44 Gallon drums. Cut out and replaced bent longerons, dressed up the bent panels and had it back in action that afternoon!When I think of WW2 air combat i think of the US with the mustangs, the British with the Spitfires, the Germans with 109s and 190s, the Japanese with Zeros, and the Italians with the RE.2001. I almost never hear of soviet air to air. I have heard of the Il-2 and IL-10 which are both ground attack. I have heard other forum users refer to the "Yaks". I know they are made by Yakovlev but I don't think that the official designation was Yak. Was it? Was there also other companys making soviet fighters. I know ilyushin made the IL series but from what I know they are primarily ground attackers.
Thanks for taking the time to read this and hopefully answer this. Sorry if it was a stupid question.
As a colleague has already correctly written, you are writing about the post-war production. In 1945, literally all fighters began to be quickly scrapping. With the huge and ongoing production after the war, by 1946 the Air Force found a shortage of aircraft, although many pilots were demobilized. The basis was Lend-Lease fighters. P-63, for example, in the air defense of the USSR until 1953. Here I note that the USSR did not pay for their delivery, although it had to pay or return them under the contract.You don't quite understand correctly.
The Yak-3 is a new-built fuselage mated to original Yak-3 wings taken from a Yak-11 that had itself been converted to a Yak-11 from from a damages Yak-3. It was damaged in a taxi accident and the original wings were undamaged and saved. Their workmanship is quite reasonable and not very many repairs were needed for "hangar rash" from storage type damage. They were not built badly originally.
I have some experience with other Soviet and Soviet bloc aircraft and they are not badly built in general. A good friend of mine had a MiG-15 UTI and a regular MiG-15 bis. Both were well-built. Another acquaintance had a PZL TS-11 Iskra. It, too was well-built. The Planes of Fame operates still another MiG-15 bis that is also well-built and reliable.
You seem to believe Soviet hardware is junk. Perhaps I mistake that. The flying examples of it I have been up close and personal with are not junk. They may not have quite the same sophistication as western military aircraft, true ... but they are well built, robust, and seem reliable enough to have been operating for years without major issues. Not having the same electronic capabilities as the west is not the same as "bad airplane." All it means is they may not see you coming until after you do your damage in aerial combat.
I worked for several years on a Hispano Ha.1112 Buchon restoration. It is basically a Bf 109G-2 with a Merlin on the front and a 4-blade propeller. I saw as many or more design issues on it as I did on the Soviet aircraft I worked on. In fact, we made a reliability modification to it by moving the hydraulic pump from the engine bay (the only source of high heat in the airplane) to behind the cockpit and balancing it by moving the battery from behind the cockpit to the engine compartment and making a battery box. A a result, that particular Ha.1112 will never have a hydraulic fire since the only thing that was hydraulic is the landing gear retraction. The flaps were manual, operated by a wheel in the cockpit to the pilot's left, concentric with the stab trim wheel. It was together and running but is now back apart as the engine is being overhauled.
Overall, I am not very impressed with the Bf 109 as a design after working on one for several years. The glaring deficiencies are too easy to correct for it to be consider by me as a great airplane. Serviceable? yes. Decent? likely. Better than decent? No.
We also fly a Flugwerk Fw 190A-8/N. It isn't a real Fw 190 and uses a P&W R-2800, but is considerably better as a design than the Bf 109. The Flugwerk airplanes do not have the upper cowling cannon mounts, so they lack the engine mount structural strength imparted by the stressed cannon mounts. As a result, they are basically 4.4-g airplanes due to engine mount strength. Otherwise, they fly fine.
I did like the contemporary quote "The pilot could take evasive action by running around inside the fuselage. GOne other important factor to keep in mind. The best Western, and to some extent Japanese and German aircraft, were designed somewhat for universal combat environments. With some exceptions, they could fight high or low, they could fly escort or air superiority missions, and could contend with enemy fighters, strike aircraft, or heavy bombers - the latter requiring very heavy armament
Soviet aircraft in general, and their fighters in particular, were not designed for universal conditions. They were designed specifically for the battlefield in Eastern Europe and Western Asia. They were designed to endure very rough field conditions, to withstand truly extreme cold, (and considerable heat during the summer in the southern part of the Theater). They were made in full knowledge of the conditions of the war - the high loss rate. They carried relatively few guns, often just one or two (though usually at least one autocannon, and their cannon were very good). Their guns were in the nose and their doctrine advocated shooting from short range. They didn't carry a lot of ammunition. They did not have two stage or multi-speed superchargers, so most of their planes did not perform well above 12-15,000 ft. This limited their top speed.
But for the Soviets, since they were not doing or contending with much Strategic bombing, (and that mostly at night), and did not have to deal with real heavy bombers ala B-17, they were not interested in high top speed at 25,000 ft. They wanted planes that were fast at 5,000 and 10,000 feet, to cover the front. That is what the VVS means - frontal aviation. Their job was to shoot down German fighters and Stukas, and Ju-88s and various other light and medium bombers. To strafe enemy ground troops and shoot rockets at them.
They were highly tailored to this role. They were (mostly) made of laminated plywood of ubiquitous birch, extremely plentiful in Russia. They used a minimum of metals in their construction, though they did have armor. They were fast and agile down low, small and low-drag (assuming the manufacturing problems were sufficiently sorted out, and the pilot kept the windscreen on). Smaller planes make smaller targets and are harder to spot.
Many around here judge Soviet aircraft by Western standards. A Yak-3, the argument goes, is inferior to a P-47, because it can't fight at 35,000 ft, and it only has three guns, and it has short range. The Soviets, notably, were offered the P-47, but they almost laughed at it. Thought it was an interesting and well made aircraft, but that it was "not a fighter". They could have had as many P-47s as they wanted. Theirs were better for their own role. Even the Spitfire was relegated to air defense (PVO) units, as it didn't do very well on the front line battlefield.
The Soviet aircraft were optimized for the environment. They were cheaply made, almost to the point of being disposable, which many of them were. The Soviets lost 46,000 combat aircraft in WW2. At that rate, they could not afford to put leather seats in each one. The Germans lost somewhere around 10 -25,000 planes on the Eastern front too (the exact figure is still debated). The German planes were a lot better made, with more features. More instruments on the control panel, better engines. More guns. And also much more expensive in terms of work hours to build them, and strategic materials like aluminum and steel. Their pilots and aircrew were more "expensive" to train as well.
I will support you again. Not only radio communication (say, headphones. in which something can be heard), but also the visibility, range, landing speed... They wrote here that they say Soviet aircraft are adapted to Soviet airfields. But how? Hurricane was ordered before 1944, because they have a MUCH lower speed. And a cooling system for VERY different weather conditions. And the review! And the guns! And the number of rounds!Just one question - how many Russian-language sources have you studied? Especially interesting, how much of the pilots' memories did you take into account? For my part, I can say that I have familiarized myself with dozens of interviews of Soviet pilots and the situation with the quality of radio communication they PRACTICALLY ALL describe in the same way. Those of them who fought on Lend-Lease aircraft were unequivocally satisfied with the radio communication. But those who fought with RSI-3/-4 very rarely used positive expressions to describe them. American radios were installed on the Yak-9DD because it was necessary to provide a longer range of radio communication - Soviet radios did not allow it.
And many pilots expressed the opinion that the quality of radio communications was often more important than flight performance.
Oh, yeah? Where was the fighter vs. fighter war? The Soviets prioritized escorting bombers and attack aircraft - the Yaks were ideal for that. They tried to use La and Cobras more often for free hunting, but they also had to escort and suffer losses due to suboptimal tactics.
But this situation remained almost unchanged during the war. However, the balance of forces changed very significantly. And even the Soviets could not use their huge superiority in numbers, making gross errors in the use of the air force.