How many Widow Makers are there?

[SaparotRob]

The F-104 was the "Widow Maker". The B-26 was the "Widow Maker". Another "Widow Maker" was just mentioned in the Most Important Battle of WW 2 thread. Just how many "Widow Makers" are there?
We might be getting into Caidin territory.

 

[Ovod]

The F-104 was the "Widow Maker". The B-26 was the "Widow Maker". Another "Widow Maker" was just mentioned in the Most Important Battle of WW 2 thread. Just how many "Widow Makers" are there?
We might be getting into Caidin territory.

The ironic thing is, both of the above planes would go on to have flight accident records no worse than most of their contemporaries - check out the crash record of the Mirage III in Australian service or the Mirage 5 in Belgian service - or even any of the Soviet cold-war types.

 

[Capt. Vick]

Notice no planes, and I mean NO PLANES, we're ever called the Marriage Maker? Just sayin'...

 

[Snautzer01]

Notice no planes, and I mean NO PLANES, we're ever called the Marriage Maker? Just sayin'...

Well how abour boats?

 

[SaparotRob]

Perhaps the first plane with sleeper bunks?

 

[MiTasol]

Notice no planes, and I mean NO PLANES, we're ever called the Marriage Maker? Just sayin'...

AIDS is Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome

 

[Jagdflieger]

The F-104 was the "Widow Maker". The B-26 was the "Widow Maker". Another "Widow Maker" was just mentioned in the Most Important Battle of WW 2 thread. Just how many "Widow Makers" are there?
We might be getting into Caidin territory.

Aside from the F-104G Starfighter being my all-time jet favorite

What many people might not be aware about, is that the "real" widow maker in the new Luftwaffe, was the Republic F-84F Thunderstreak
Operational from November 1956 to 1967, out of 450 aircraft's delivered, 167 crashed - something must have been fundamentally wrong with this aircraft.
Even though having been a Strikefighter, the Recon version Republic RF-84F, out of 102 aircraft's delivered 21 crashed.

E.g the Canadair CL-13B Mk.6 Sabre; used as a sole interceptor
Operational from May 1956 to 1966, out of 225 aircraft's delivered, less then a dozen crashed.

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[fubar57]

Logging widowmaker....

 

[GrauGeist]

Logging widowmaker....

View attachment 662629​

Yep, when I hear that term, snags, snowkill and such in the woods are the first thing to come to mind.
Even when not working in the woods, it pays to look up and keep an eye out, especially when a wind comes up and starts knocking that stuff loose.

As far as aircraft goes, the "tent peg" (F-104) has already been mentioned.
Other types have been called that term at one point or another, too.
Like the Tu-22, SB2C, F-100, MiG-21, Saab J-21 and even the USMC's AV-8B.

 

[Jagdflieger]

Yep, when I hear that term, snags, snowkill and such in the woods are the first thing to come to mind.
Even when not working in the woods, it pays to look up and keep an eye out, especially when a wind comes up and starts knocking that stuff loose.

As far as aircraft goes, the "tent peg" (F-104) has already been mentioned.
Other types have been called that term at one point or another, too.
Like the Tu-22, SB2C, F-100, MiG-21, Saab J-21 and even the USMC's AV-8B.

Slight correction here to; the Saab J-21 was unofficially named "The Merry Widow" the aircraft itself both initial prop version and the later jet version did not fulfill
the expectations by the Swedish Air-force, but it wasn't a crash prone aircraft -as such not a widow maker.
In regards to the USMC AV-8B, in what conjunction was this aircraft, termed widow-maker?

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Aside from the F-104G Starfighter being my all-time jet favorite

What many people might not be aware about, is that the "real" widow maker in the new Luftwaffe, was the Republic F-84F Thunderstreak

The F-100 operated by NATO countries also had a high accident rate.

Operational from November 1956 to 1967, out of 450 aircraft's delivered, 167 crashed - something must have been fundamentally wrong with this aircraft.

The issue with the -104 was it's operational role and training. IIRC there were minimal issues due to the basic aircraft design or maintenance (except for the downward firing ejection seat that was eventually replaced) but there were issues with the J-79's afterburner system. Initially designed to be an air superiority fighter and then later short range interceptor it was eventually deployed as a low-level minnie nuclear bomber by the "new" Luftwaffe. Several things attributed to the high accident rate.

1. Training - initially there was not a good training platform that enabled pilots to transition from the F-86 into the F-104. Although a trainer version of the aircraft was developed, it wasn't until the T-38 came on board where this role was fulfilled, not only for the F-104 but for other higher performing aircraft being developed. There were also some veteran WW2 pilots who showed some push back when being trained in some basic combat skills, especially instrument flying.

2. Low level training and operations - most if not all of the low level operations were flown "by hand" and attempting to conduct low level training in inclement European weather was disastrous. Luftwaffe training was set up at Luke AFB to address these issues but by virtue of the mission, you were still looking at at least 10 aircraft per year being lost.

3. Aggressive deployment - once the mission was identified, there was a push to have this low-level strike capability deployed to counter the Soviet threat.

On top of this you had the bribery scandal that eventually had some Lockheed top brass resign, Kelly Johnson was so angry with "his bosses" that he almost resigned from Lockheed. At the end of the day, Lockheed wasn't doing anything different from their competitors, they were just dumb enough to get caught.

Even though having been a Strikefighter, the Recon version Republic RF-84F, out of 102 aircraft's delivered 21 crashed.

E.g the Canadair CL-13B Mk.6 Sabre; used as a sole interceptor
Operational from May 1956 to 1966, out of 225 aircraft's delivered, less then a dozen crashed.

The Saber was a much simpler aircraft to operate and fly and it's mission was a lot less hazardous than what the F-104 was doing.

270 Luftwaffe and Marineflieger Starfighters were lost in accidents, just under 30 percent of the total force. 110 pilots were killed. This attrition rate was not all that much greater than that of the F-104 in service with other operators. Canada lost 50 percent of its 200 single-seat CF-104s in flying accidents. As mentioned, the Luftwaffe had suffered a 36 percent attrition rate with the Republic F-84F Thunderstreak. At the end of the day, there was nothing inherently dangerous about the Starfighter that good training and continued pilot proficiency couldn't resolve. The Royal Norwegian Air Force operating identical F-104G suffered only six losses in 56,000 flying hours. The Spanish Air Force had no operational losses.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

When you know what you're doing...

 

[herman1rg]

After entering service with the USAAF aviation units, the B-26 Marauder quickly received the reputation of a "Widowmaker" due to the early models' high accident rate during takeoffs and landings.

This was because the Marauder had to be flown at precise airspeeds, particularly on final runway approach or when one engine was out. The unusually high 150 mph (241 km/h) speed on short final runway approach was intimidating to many pilots who were used to much slower approach speeds, and whenever they slowed to speeds below those stipulated in the manual, the aircraft would often stall and crash

 

[Jagdflieger]

The F-100 operated by NATO countries also had a high accident rate.

The issue with the -104 was it's operational role and training. IIRC there were minimal issues due to the basic aircraft design or maintenance (except for the downward firing ejection seat that was eventually replaced) but there were issues with the J-79's afterburner system. Initially designed to be an air superiority fighter and then later short range interceptor it was eventually deployed as a low-level minnie nuclear bomber by the "new Luftwaffe. Several things attributed to the high accident rate.

1. Training - initially there was not a good training platform that enabled pilots to transition from the F-86 into the F-104. Although a trainer version of the aircraft was developed, it wasn't until the T-38 came on board where this role was fulfilled. There were also some veteran WW2 pilots who showed some push back when being trained in some basic combat skills, especially instrument flying.

2. Low level training and operations - most if not all of the low level operations were flown "by hand" and attempting to conduct low level training in inclement European weather was disastrous. Luftwaffe training was set up at Luke AFB to address these issues but by virtue of the mission, you were still looking at at least 10 aircraft per year being lost.

3. Aggressive deployment - once the mission was identified, there was a push to have this low-level strike capability deployed to counter the Soviet threat.

On top of this you had the bribery scandal that eventually had some Lockheed top brass resign, Kelly Johnson was so disgusted with "his bosses" that he almost resigned from Lockheed. At the end of the day, Lockheed wasn't doing anything different from their competitors, they were just dumb enough to get caught.



The Saber was a much simpler aircraft to operate and fly and it's mission was a lot less hazardous than what the F-104 was doing.

270 Luftwaffe and Marineflieger Starfighters were lost in accidents, just under 30 percent of the total force. 110 pilots were killed. This attrition rate was not all that much greater than that of the F-104 in service with other operators. Canada lost 50 percent of its 200 single-seat CF-104s in flying accidents. As mentioned, the Luftwaffe had suffered a 36 percent attrition rate with the Republic F-84F Thunderstreak. At the end of the day, there was nothing inherently dangerous about the Starfighter that good training and continued pilot proficiency couldn't resolve. The Royal Norwegian Air Force operating identical F-104G suffered only six losses in 56,000 flying hours. The Spanish Air Force had no operational losses.

Hi Flyboy,

maybe you mixed up something, I wasn't referring to the F-104G, but the Republic F-84F Thunderstreak. I have not come across any even near figure to the losses that the
Luftwaffe encountered with this aircraft, by other users - would you have some? I would be very interested, since my father flew this aircraft and was really, really relieved
when he got relegated to another assignment.

He did some years later get to fly the F-104G - and he loved that aircraft - most of the losses for the G were due to German modifications for the ground attack, strike
fighter role, weapon load 4500lb (something for which the F-104 was never intended/designed for, and AFAIK no other user did). so no real surprise from that point of view
just politically exploited by the opposition in those days. From 916 F-104 - 292 written off, out of which 247 where in flight crashes.

But the F-84F Thunderstreak was designed for that purpose (similar weapon-load) and not modified or tampered with by the Luftwaffe.

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hi Flyboy,

maybe you mixed up something, I wasn't referring to the F-104G, but the Republic F-84F Thunderstreak. I have not come across any even near figure to the losses that the
Luftwaffe encountered with this aircraft, by other users - would you have some? I would be very interested, since my father flew this aircraft and was really, really relieved
when he got relegated to another assignment.

He did some years later get to fly the F-104G - and he loved that aircraft - most of the losses for the G were due to German modifications for the ground attack, strike
fighter role, weapon load 4500lb (something for which the F-104 was never intended/designed for, and AFAIK no other user did). so no real surprise from that point of view
just politically exploited by the opposition in those days. From 916 F-104 - 292 written off, out of which 247 where in flight crashes.

But the F-84F Thunderstreak was designed for that purpose (similar weapon-load) and not modified or tampered with by the Luftwaffe.

Regards
Jagdflieger

Got ya!

This is all I found for the "F-84." Nothing that definitive with regards to the Luftwaffe or the F-84F.

An Index of Accident Exposure for Flying in USAF

books.google.com

 

[FLYBOYJ]

He did some years later get to fly the F-104G - and he loved that aircraft

Regards
Jagdflieger

I met several people who flew the F-104 (including a former boss) and they loved the aircraft.

 

[Jagdflieger]

I met several people who flew the F-104 (including a former boss) and they loved the aircraft.

Hi Flyboy ,

thanks a lot for the chart. well seems the F84 did have some serious issues.
Surprisingly the P-47 had some issues too before 1947 - any particular reasons known for the sudden drop in 1948?

Would you have a link to a website that is kind of dedicated towards the Republic F-84F?

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hi Flyboy ,

thanks a lot for the chart. well seems the F84 did have some serious issues.
Surprisingly the P-47 had some issues too before 1947 - any particular reasons known for the sudden drop in 1948?

I would guess reduced flight hours

Would you have a link to a website that is kind of dedicated towards the Republic F-84F?

Regards
Jagdflieger

F-84F Thunderstreak Jet Fighter

www.airplanes-online.com

 

[pbehn]

Notice no planes, and I mean NO PLANES, we're ever called the Marriage Maker? Just sayin'...

They may not have been called such but as I understand it flying Spitfires Mustangs etc was a great help in making the first steps.

 

[SaparotRob]

Yep, when I hear that term, snags, snowkill and such in the woods are the first thing to come to mind.
Even when not working in the woods, it pays to look up and keep an eye out, especially when a wind comes up and starts knocking that stuff loose.

As far as aircraft goes, the "tent peg" (F-104) has already been mentioned.
Other types have been called that term at one point or another, too.
Like the Tu-22, SB2C, F-100, MiG-21, Saab J-21 and even the USMC's AV-8B.

Some of those "widow makers" were a surprise to me, especially the F-100 and the MiG-21.