How many Widow Makers are there?

[MiTasol]

There was a long pre history to that F-86 crash. The owner pilot tried to buy the aircraft from Fighter Imports at Chino but Leroy had a policy that you had to do x hours in one of his T-33s and reach a certain level of proficiency before he would sell you a Sabre. This guy flunked badly so he paid someone else to do Leroys program and buy the aircraft. The aircraft was then almost immediately taken over by the clown who flew it on its last flight.

This is a photo I took at Reno 72 of Leroy and one of his Canadair Sabres. His hand was injured minutes before he was to take off and demo the aircraft so he asked Bob Hoover to fly it instead. Bob demured at first but Leroy eventually convinced him. The resulting display was breathtaking as Bob used a hollow on the far side of the runway to do a low level pass with only the fin visible. I will try and find the photo.

Al, Redick Jim Noble, ??? and Leroy Penhall (with bandaged hand)

 

[Jagdflieger]

Due to difficulty of exiting the aircraft, the A4D was called All Four Dead.

WHaaaat? How dare you
the A-4 Skyhawk is on my favorite US jet-list the number 3. and BTW where are the other 2-3 dead supposed to come from

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[MiTasol]

Have you seen footage of the RNZAF A4D aerobatic team doing their show with two aircraft tied together by the in-flight refueling hose?

Cant find it on youtube but it was common about 20 years back

 

[Jagdflieger]

Have you seen footage of the RNZAF A4D aerobatic team doing their show with two aircraft tied together by the in-flight refueling hose?

Cant find it on youtube but it was common about 20 years back

No- but I wish I had
I used to live (long time ago) in Singapore, so lot's of them to see and with RNZAF A-4's swooping in from time to time.
And abseiling in New Zealand with those Huey beauties.
I think to recall that there was a tragic accident involved during one of those "stunts" in the late 80's.

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[nuuumannn]

Hi nuuumann,

Excellent information in your post, Jagdflieger. Very informative

 

[nuuumannn]

And abseiling in New Zealand with those Huey beauties.

Lovely to see you have an affinity with RNZAF A-4s. I did a little bit of work on them when they were in storage before they were dispersed to Draken and the various aviation museums around the country. I worked on Hueys, or simply Iroquois here, for a year or so. Great helicopter, nice and simple. The RNZAF's were squeaky clean, gold plated and maintained to a very high standard, probably higher than need be, but it was great fun doing phase servicing (light and line maintenance). Group (heavy maintenance) not so much.

After retirement from service the aircraft were cleaned as they were stored inside for some years and got covered in bird droppings, then speed tape was applied before they were sprayed with Spraylat (spray-on latex covering). so they could be put outdoors for long term storage.

A-4s v

NZ6215 had power applied as it was used as the demo aircraft in case any potential buyers wanted to see the avionics fired up, which was specifically tailormade for our A-4s.

NZ6215

 

[nuuumannn]

Have you seen footage of the RNZAF A4D aerobatic team doing their show with two aircraft tied together by the in-flight refueling hose?

75 Sqn Kiwi Red display team. How about a formation loop whilst plugged...



Australian Bi-centennial airshow in 1988 from the ground.

 

[SaparotRob]

A-4s were flying around my neighborhood when I was a kid. They were based at NASNY. The CO's daughter was in one of my junior high school classes. One night there was some kinda' aerial thing going on. The next day in class she sweetly asked me "Did you hear my daddy's jets?"
I always liked Heinemann's hotrod but to this day I think of them as "My daddy's jets".

True story.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

There was a long pre history to that F-86 crash. The owner pilot tried to buy the aircraft from Fighter Imports at Chino but Leroy had a policy that you had to do x hours in one of his T-33s and reach a certain level of proficiency before he would sell you a Sabre. This guy flunked badly so he paid someone else to do Leroys program and buy the aircraft. The aircraft was then almost immediately taken over by the clown who flew it on its last flight.

This is a photo I took at Reno 72 of Leroy and one of his Canadair Sabres. His hand was injured minutes before he was to take off and demo the aircraft so he asked Bob Hoover to fly it instead. Bob demured at first but Leroy eventually convinced him. The resulting display was breathtaking as Bob used a hollow on the far side of the runway to do a low level pass with only the fin visible. I will try and find the photo.
View attachment 662736

Al, Redick Jim Noble, ??? and Leroy Penhall (with bandaged hand)

Excellent stuff! I'm sure he was involved with Bob Laidlaw who started Flight Systems. After the "Saber Sunday" crash, the FAA began the LOA requirement for warbirds (rightfully so). I know Al Redick's son Alby, great guy, very honest businessman.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The commentary to that video notes A US Air force F-100 Supersabre jet rounds out high in nose-high attitude, during attempted emergency landing at Edwards Air Force Base, California. The pilot applies power to go around without success as the F-100 enters a state known as a "Sabre Dance".

Indeed, low-and-slow high AoA is the culprit in Sabre-dance. The wingtips retain lift, but towards the fuselage the wings stall out, and because the lift is on the tips, roll is dangerously enhanced, I think. A sort of lever-effect seems to be happening, and is complicated by the pilot's responding to bank?

 

[nuuumannn]

The Kiwi A-4s had a raft of avionic mods make to keep them current, including shoehorning in the APG-66 radar into the nose and carriage of Maverick missiles. A mate of mine I used to work with was with 75 Sqn when they had the Skyhawks said that the A-4, not being a big aircraft, boxes were squeezed in everywhere and jobs had to be done with one hand only through small access doors. One-handed lockwire invisible to the eye is painful, especially when the wire goes up under your fingernails...

A-4K office. This is NZ6215 as pictured earlier.

A-4 panel

 

[Jagdflieger]

The Kiwi A-4s had a raft of avionic mods make to keep them current, including shoehorning in the APG-66 radar into the nose and carriage of Maverick missiles. A mate of mine I used to work with was with 75 Sqn when they had the Skyhawks said that the A-4, not being a big aircraft, boxes were squeezed in everywhere and jobs had to be done with one hand only through small access doors. One-handed lockwire invisible to the eye is painful, especially when the wire goes up under your fingernails...

A-4K office. This is NZ6215 as pictured earlier.

View attachment 662807A-4 panel

Hi nuuumann,

.....especially when the wire goes up under your fingernails...
thanks a lot for all the great photos and information - yes I dig that aircraft and anything to do with the Ngāti Tūmatauenga (God's warriors)
If IIRC most of the RNZAF A-4's at Butterworth/Malaysia and Changi/Singapore were from the 75 Sqn.?

....Great helicopter, nice and simple. The RNZAF's were squeaky clean, gold plated and maintained to a very high standard, probably higher than need be....
Absolutely, undeniably true.

Personally I never understood the German governments or Luftwaffe's reasons for purchasing the Alpha Jet instead of opting for the far more capable and proven A-4
Another strange bird was Malaysia, having ordered 90-100 A-4, taking delivery of around 40 and having forgotten about the remaining A-4's (have you got words)?

In case you can still remember - what purpose do these red encircled metal plaques serve? please see photo.

Regards
Jagdflieger

SaparotRob - sorry for having derailed your thread. It's just when the A-4 comes in, I just can't......

 

[SaparotRob]

Hi nuuumann,

.....especially when the wire goes up under your fingernails...
thanks a lot for all the great photos and information - yes I dig that aircraft and anything to do with the Ngāti Tūmatauenga (God's warriors)
If IIRC most of the RNZAF A-4's at Butterworth/Malaysia and Changi/Singapore were from the 75 Sqn.?

Personally I never understood the German governments or Luftwaffe's reasons for purchasing the Alpha Jet instead of opting for the far more capable and proven A-4
Another strange bird was Malaysia, having ordered 90-100 A-4, taking delivery of around 40 and having forgotten about the remaining A-4's (have you got words)?

In case you can still remember - what purpose do these red encircled metal plaques serve?

Regards
Jagdflieger

SaparotRob - sorry for having derailed your thread. It's just when the A-4 comes in, I just can't......

Not a problem. I am a retired railroad employee so now I can enjoy a good derailment.

 

[nuuumannn]

If IIRC most of the RNZAF A-4's at Butterworth/Malaysia and Changi/Singapore were from the 75 Sqn.?

Yes they were. There were only two RNZAF units that operated the A-4K, 75 Sqn and 2 Sqn, which was formed after the purchase of the Aussie A-4Gs.

This is a former 2 Sqn example in a museum, note the winged taiaha emblem of 2 Sqn on its fin. A taiaha is an elongated club, not a spear, and is wielded two-handed like a broadsword in battle in a series of stances and offensive moves. Highly effective as they had a decorative end designed to distract the adversary in hand-to-hand combat. Note the white stuff on the rudder and exhaust port, that's the Spraylat that was applied when the aircraft were in outside storage.

DSC_6904

Absolutely, undeniably true.

I remember an incident where we were static balancing main rotor blades, they are heavy and required six to eight guys to lift and I was in a team carrying one and one fella went to lift a blade up in anticipation of us arriving, but realising how heavy it was once he'd picked up one end, he dropped it and it fell and hit a stand, putting a doofty dent in it. The manuals were consulted and a tap test done and dimensionally the damage was well within tolerance, so no one was concerned, but the Air Force deemed this too much and the blade was sent back to the manufacturer for reconditioning, who disregarded the damage, for the reason stipulated earlier and put it back into circulation!

what purpose do these red encircled metal plaques serve?

They are checklists. At a quick glance the pilot follows the sequence of functions in order!

To be clear, I never worked on the A-4 while it was in service, just once it had been retired. I did work on the UH-1, C-130 and P-3.

 

[RichardSuhkoi]

The F-104 was the "Widow Maker". The B-26 was the "Widow Maker". Another "Widow Maker" was just mentioned in the Most Important Battle of WW 2 thread. Just how many "Widow Makers" are there?
We might be getting into Caidin territory.

Two credible sources (a man who imported a pair of Jordanian 104 and a guy who worked on airframe overhaul in Germany), both told me the same thing. That the F104S with reaction tips and blown flaps had solved the high AOA on landing hazard and the low altitude stalls issue. Too late.

 

[RichardSuhkoi]

I met several people who flew the F-104 (including a former boss) and they loved the aircraft.

Around

I met several people who flew the F-104 (including a former boss) and they loved the aircraft.

Around 1980 I was by the sea by my Grandmothers home town in Ostfreisland (just west of Bremerhaven) and suddenly there were two F104 right overhead at maybe 600' in full AB doing a hard skidding nose up turn. I felt physical pain in my chest from the wonderful sound those mighty J79. Later it was suggested to me the pilots had screwed up and meant to avoid flying overland but had made noise and cattle fright far worse by making maximum effort to turn away.

 

[Jagdflieger]

They are checklists. At a quick glance the pilot follows the sequence of functions in order!

To be clear, I never worked on the A-4 while it was in service, just once it had been retired. I did work on the UH-1, C-130 and P-3.

That is what I was having in mind too - thanks for confirming
No issue at all, you had made that very clear in your previous postings

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[GreenKnight121]

What many people might not be aware about, is that the "real" widow maker in the new Luftwaffe, was the Republic F-84F Thunderstreak
Operational from November 1956 to 1967, out of 450 aircraft's delivered, 167 crashed - something must have been fundamentally wrong with this aircraft.
Even though having been a Strikefighter, the Recon version Republic RF-84F, out of 102 aircraft's delivered 21 crashed.

Regards
Jagdflieger

Republic F-84F Thunderstreak

The F-84F-5-RE had the 7330 lb.st. J65-W-3 or the equivalent Buick-built J65-B-3. The deliveries of this version began in the latter part of 1953. The first F-84F-25-RE (51-1621) appeared at the end of 1953. It introduced an "all-flying" horizontal tailplane, in which the entire horizontal tail moved as a unit. The earlier F-84Fs suffered from a high-g stall pitch-up tendency which was often severe enough to tear the wings off the aircraft. The all-flying tail provided more positive control which helped to alleviate this problem, although the F-84F continued to operate under maneuverability restrictions throughout much of its service life.

 

[Jagdflieger]

The Shenyang J-6: Chinese Version of MiG-19 Fighter with about 4500+ units having been produced was in its initial years referred to as a widow maker too. – According to PLAAF pilots I had spoken to. But the situation seemed to have dramatically improved from the early 70's onward.

The Bulgarian MiG 19 pilots referred in a similar name towards that aircraft. After having lost almost 50% of their MiG 19 fleet they even reverted back to the MiG-17PF.

As such the worst widow-maker of all jet aircraft's was most likely the MiG 19 – certainly for the Bulgarian Air force.

Regards
Jagdflieger

 

[drgondog]

After entering service with the USAAF aviation units, the B-26 Marauder quickly received the reputation of a "Widowmaker" due to the early models' high accident rate during takeoffs and landings.

This was because the Marauder had to be flown at precise airspeeds, particularly on final runway approach or when one engine was out. The unusually high 150 mph (241 km/h) speed on short final runway approach was intimidating to many pilots who were used to much slower approach speeds, and whenever they slowed to speeds below those stipulated in the manual, the aircraft would often stall and crash

Totally agree. My father stuck in Training Command as Instructor and training command squadron leader, volunteered for CBI and ETO combat assignment, finally opted to volunteer for B-26 assignment. He loved the B-26 performance and zero problem adapting to landing speed. Laughed when comparing to fully loaded F-104/F015 later in life.

When he was with 355th FG in England and Germany, the 355th had an A-20K and B-26G for base hacks. He served as IP for other fighter pilots wishing T/E time and would start with B-26, check them out - Then transition to A-20.