How The Spitfire Mk XIV Compared to the K4 and Other Questions
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Bungays "the most dangerous enemy" describes how Bob Doe had a near miss and resolved to Quarter the sky and search it systematically, this wih Sailor Milans rules of combat leads me to think what we call SA wasnt taught officially in the early war RAF, but squadrons members would teach each other, this was alluded to in the firlm Battle of Britain with its tack-a-tack-a-tack sequence (the film character was based in part on Milan), a film that at least tried to stick to something like reality.
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drgondog
Major
Starting fuel loads are important for flight test comparisons only - without detailed regard for the condition of the airframe or engines.
Having said this, the fuel contribution to performance (or lack thereof)by virtue of WL for the typical WWII fighter was paramount in maneuverability factors for that airframe.. The Mustang and the typical Japanese naval fighter are classic examples of a particular fighter with the greatest bandwidth between Take off conditions and 'half full' simply because of the disproportionate internal fuel capability as a function of empty weight.
GJS,
I would classify most afterburner equipped fighters as hot rods (inside same class). The Mig has strong engines for its weight but the TBO is terrible compared to our stuff.
The Flanker is the large block V8 in amongst a mixed field. I like it for its legs, weapons and flight controls, however avionics wise it's not even close!
If you approach every fight like your opponent is King Kong it will serve you better in the end. They can be killed, just have to not be arrogant as you go about it.
Cheers,
Biff
Greg,
Yes I fought the German "Miggies" as they called it. Most guys were Western trained but they did have five or six Eastern guys in the squadron. I fought four of those guys, one of which had potential. They flew about 180 hours per year, but at an average sortie duration (ASD) of 30 minutes. They were probably the most proficient Mig drivers on the planet. Fought them in Germany and at Key West (<---UF believably good)!
Great equipment can be overcome by great training in lessor equipment. It happened in WW2 and it happens still.
Cheers,
Biff
Very interesting post.
Is it an indirect admission that the latest flanker, The Su 35, practically is unbeatable by the F15 within visual range if both planes have pilots of similar abilities?
I didnt read that at all I thought it meant beware of your opponents strengths, if you allow him to use them instead of you using yours you may get hurt.
Dedalos,
No, I'm not saying the Flanker is unbeatable by an Eagle, not at all. Is it a lethal plane, yes. Can it be killed, yes. Can you get killed if you are not careful, yes. To put things in perspective you can get killed by a guy in a Mig-21 if you aren't careful, or respect it's capabilities (upgrades). The Flanker is no different, just that it leaves less room for error.
Also realize that last F-15C/D we bought was in 1986. The latest Flankers came out well after that, and performance wise should reflect that via improvements. No different than early war versus late war BoB fighters. Or no different than cars. Things are always getting improved.
I would be surprised if anyone trains in a Flanker like we train in our fighters. Not many countries even come close to training to the level we do, regardless of political affiliation.
Cheers,
Biff
Reading a lot of posts on a lot of threads here, much is made of which aircraft would win in a one on one. I have an idea in mind that in many cases the performance a pilot wanted was that to get him into a good position, speed and climb. After that the performance is what will keep him alive. With two equally matched planes and pilots it is very difficult to maneuver into a kill situation. Spitfires were armed with canon (admittedly they didnt work too well) in the BoB. Since most kills are made when the target doesnt see the victor the Spitfire didnt really become more lethal during the war. Its ability to get into position and escape did change a lot though.
drgondog
Major
Whether True or close to True - at least 80% of dead pilots or 'skydivers' from a dogfight never saw the guy that got him.
In that scenario an F-22 with a pilot asleep at the wheel could be killed by an F-105 if the conditions are right.
In that scenario an F-22 with a pilot asleep at the wheel could be killed by an F-105 if the conditions are right.
parsifal
Colonel
In WWII Pilot quality was probably a dominant variable of the equation of win or lose. In my time (70-80's...I was never a pilot but had a bit to do with AD) it was considered still a very big influence on the outcome. Has that changed with the current generation, or even shifted t all.
back to WWII, I don't know how many times ive read reports about how pilots with low experience could not push their a/c to the limits, even when their lives were on the line.
The other big influence was that the majority of fighter combats were won or lost on first pass. gain the height advantage, dive shoot, scoot and climb again. Turn was only important if both parties were willing to hang round and fight it out
back to WWII, I don't know how many times ive read reports about how pilots with low experience could not push their a/c to the limits, even when their lives were on the line.
The other big influence was that the majority of fighter combats were won or lost on first pass. gain the height advantage, dive shoot, scoot and climb again. Turn was only important if both parties were willing to hang round and fight it out
Drgondog,
It is possible to kill F-22 guys, but it doesn't happen very often. They have HUGE SA. And I think the Thud Drivers did have some gun kills (out of 27.5 total, proof that you can get whacked by anything if you don't have SA or know what you are doing)...
One of my favorite tactics during Large Force Employments (LFEs) was to circle the furballs, and kill the spitters as they tried to leave. Stay away from the their horizon and you are rarely seen. To wade into a large furball is asking to get whacked by someone you don't see.
Cheers,
Biff
GregP
Major
I recall one Red Flag in the 1980's when a Buccaneer came up out of the ground clutter and bagged an F-15. The Eagle drivers were quite embarassed, but the Buc pilot just happened to be in the right place at just the right time to take the shot. Can't recall exactly, but it seem like it was in the mid to late 1980's, maybe early 90's.
The Buc pilot admitted it wasn't planned, but he took the opportunity when it presented itself. He was frankly surprised to find an F-15 in the exercise down low and moving more or less in a straight line.
The Buc pilot admitted it wasn't planned, but he took the opportunity when it presented itself. He was frankly surprised to find an F-15 in the exercise down low and moving more or less in a straight line.
That does not surprise me at all. I raced motorcycles and the most common cause of a novice crashing was them waiting to see when the guy in front braked before braking (obvious tactic that is what I did) but a novice just doesnt brake hard enough and either overshoots or heels in too hot. You would think braking hard is about the easiest thing to learn but it isnt, after 3 years racing there was one guy who could always outbrake me, he was the British champion in 1982, he always heeled in too hot and stayed on while I crashed.
In racing terms a novice wears an orange jacket, to lose the orange jacket you must complete 10 races on 3 circuits and finish in the top 50%.
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GregP
Major
Hi pbehn,
We should talk about motorcycle rasing. I rode Observed Trials for 17 yeasr abd also did about 3 - 5 pavement road races per year during that time, mostly on 750s on pavement and Montessa, Yamaha, Aprillia, Beta, Gas-Gas in Trials. It isn't good for this forum, but there ARE some good stories to swap, I'm sure.
Most exciting ride of my life was on a Yamaha TZ750 4-cylinder, 2-stroke. You could wheelstand effortlessly at 130 mph when it came on the pipe, whether you wanted to or didn't want to ... scaredest I ever was happend in a Trial going up a rock about 20 feet high, but the drop-off on the other side was 50 feet if you didn't stop and turn left right at the crest!
I was REALLY close to the edge, twice ... didn't lose me or the bike, though ... but I wasn't exactly fun, until it was over. Then the memories get better until I recall my feelings just at the crest of the rock.
Maybe some PM's and then the off-topic forum. I recall the frame flex in the old Kawasaki 900 Z1 ... you could turn the bike left with throttle because the swingarm would flex, but you could only turn it left since it didn't flex back right if you closed the throttle, it just went straight and shook it's head at you, or did until I installed a steering damper.
We should talk about motorcycle rasing. I rode Observed Trials for 17 yeasr abd also did about 3 - 5 pavement road races per year during that time, mostly on 750s on pavement and Montessa, Yamaha, Aprillia, Beta, Gas-Gas in Trials. It isn't good for this forum, but there ARE some good stories to swap, I'm sure.
Most exciting ride of my life was on a Yamaha TZ750 4-cylinder, 2-stroke. You could wheelstand effortlessly at 130 mph when it came on the pipe, whether you wanted to or didn't want to ... scaredest I ever was happend in a Trial going up a rock about 20 feet high, but the drop-off on the other side was 50 feet if you didn't stop and turn left right at the crest!
I was REALLY close to the edge, twice ... didn't lose me or the bike, though ... but I wasn't exactly fun, until it was over. Then the memories get better until I recall my feelings just at the crest of the rock.
Maybe some PM's and then the off-topic forum. I recall the frame flex in the old Kawasaki 900 Z1 ... you could turn the bike left with throttle because the swingarm would flex, but you could only turn it left since it didn't flex back right if you closed the throttle, it just went straight and shook it's head at you, or did until I installed a steering damper.
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Greg,
Red Flag was an absolute blast! Work hard, play hard! Red Flag flows out with Eagles in front, strikers would push a few minutes later, eventually they would pass us and go into the target area (AKA SAM hell), then we would pick them up on the way back out. The Red Air would eventually kill regenerate enough times to get in amongst the strikers. Defensive reactions by most players would eventually mean just about everyone was below 5k over the Farms (look at Google maps) including us Eagle guys. If you wanted to find a fight, fly over the farms below 19k and it would find you!
Oh what memories from there! I went through my first 1k in the Eagle there in 5 Sep 1996, tail 84-134 with our intel officer in the back seat (saw Alanis Morrisette Cirque du Solei) that TDY as well. I think all the European Air Forces Vipers were there as our Red Air (they had orange training missiles)! What a bunch of good sh-ts!
My squadron commander pulled me aside after one sortie (where I was tangling with a couple of the Red Air guys who didn't pay much attention to some of our low altitude training rules) for me going beyond our rule set (or doing the same thing they were). He usually was a total hard arse, but was beyond cool with how he handled things that day. I guess he was happy to see us wading in and slinging carnage.
Cheers,
Biff
- Thread starter
- #199
Wow! I don't think I'd ever have the guts for something like that. I think I'll stick to armchair-cycling. Who's in?
GregP
Major
All I can say is you don't start off on a full-race motorcycle ... you work up to it, somewhat gradually due to the price of the things. Pbehn is right, rookies on a track don't brake or corner well, and aren't smart enough to get out of the way. But we ALL had to start somewhere. A couple of times I went to a rookie and talked him into following me for a few laps to learn the track. It was an attempt to make is safer for me! It worked. The rookie wasn't a threat in the race, but WAS fast enough not to get in the way. I still didn't win, but did OK.
As for trials, it is easily the most fun I ever had on a motorcycle. Here is 10-time World Champion Toni Bou riding a staged indoor event. Hope you like it.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIy-Kvikepw
I am nowhere NEAR his class, but did OK in local Arizona events out in the desert rocks.
Damn! This should have gone in the off-topic forum. Maybe Adler or Joe can move it there ... or else not. I won't post more motorsports other than aircraft in here, so maybe leave it ... your call. Slap me, please.
As for trials, it is easily the most fun I ever had on a motorcycle. Here is 10-time World Champion Toni Bou riding a staged indoor event. Hope you like it.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIy-Kvikepw
I am nowhere NEAR his class, but did OK in local Arizona events out in the desert rocks.
Damn! This should have gone in the off-topic forum. Maybe Adler or Joe can move it there ... or else not. I won't post more motorsports other than aircraft in here, so maybe leave it ... your call. Slap me, please.
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