How were the Doolittle raider B-25's going to be recovered originally?

[AUniqueNameIsNeeded]

I found some evidence of them testing landing B-25's on an aircraft carrier. My question is was this done with an arresting hook? Second question is if they are not using a hook, how were they going to handle the traffic on the deck?

Thanks in advance,

 

[fubar57]

Pretty sure they were to land in China

 

[fubar57]

From Doolittle Raiders - First Joint Action

"It is well to point out that the unusual attitude of the airplane during the short take off practice was uncomfortable and awkward. The position that the airplane left the ground was critical and dangerous in the event of any loss of power whatsoever. The conclusions drawn, after practice, were that the full load take off from a carrier could be accomplished with minimum difficulty. It was even concluded that, with a tail hook, the B-25 could be landed on a large carrier but that there would be a problem in stowing them after they had landed. (Carrier landings have been made with the B-25 since the end of the war.)"

 

[AUniqueNameIsNeeded]

From Doolittle Raiders - First Joint Action

"It is well to point out that the unusual attitude of the airplane during the short take off practice was uncomfortable and awkward. The position that the airplane left the ground was critical and dangerous in the event of any loss of power whatsoever. The conclusions drawn, after practice, were that the full load take off from a carrier could be accomplished with minimum difficulty. It was even concluded that, with a tail hook, the B-25 could be landed on a large carrier but that there would be a problem in stowing them after they had landed. (Carrier landings have been made with the B-25 since the end of the war.)"

Wow, so they were using hooks on B-25's. I cannot find any pictures or videos of any of them though. Thanks for finding this!

 

[special ed]

Only one B-25 was carrier tested by the same pilot who carrier tested the P-51. Doolittle's mission was to end in China. As Chennault had been requesting B-24's for the AVG, he was told there wern't enough but possibly a few B-25's could be sent. The goal was to deliver the B-25's to the AVG if they were not shot down.

 

[AUniqueNameIsNeeded]

Another follow-up question would be are there any known wrecks or artifacts from any of the original aircraft?

 

[R Leonard]

Only one B-25 was carrier tested by the same pilot who carrier tested the P-51 . . .

Ahh, no.

The PBJ, a naval B-25, which landed and launched from USS Shangri La in November 1944 was piloted by Syd Bottomley. The navalized P-51 which performed the same stunt, on the same day, on the same ship, was piloted by Bob Elder. Also, operating that day off Shangri La was an F7F piloted by Charlie Lane.

Lieutenant Commander Syd Bottomley, who had earlier served as XO of VB-3 at the Battle of Midway and then succeeded Max Leslie as squadron CO when Leslie fleeted up to CAG-3, was assigned to the Ship Experimental Unit of the Naval Aircraft Factory at Mustin Field, Philadelphia in the fall of 1943. The SEU was responsible for the evaluation and testing of catapult and arresting gear engines and associated handling equipment designed for shipboard and small field use. Bottomley was charged with the operation and maintenance of the test aircraft assigned to projects by the Bureau of Aeronautics and preparation of test aircraft reports, including evaluating carrier suitability portions of the Board of Inspection and Survey trials of new prototype aircraft. Assisting him were Lieutenants Bob Elder and Charlie Lane who had served with him in VB-3 and whom Bottomley dragooned away from the training command along with the SEU catapult officer, Lieutenant Jim Daniels, a VF-6 early war veteran and also a qualified LSO.

Among the projects under Bottomley's charge at SEU were the modifications of the P-38, P-39 and P-40 with catapult hooks by NAF for launching from jeep carrier transports. After modifications were completed it was Bottomley and company's place to make catapult shots to determine feasibility, trim tab and flap settings and check flight characteristics. Soon they were also given a modified P-47, P-51, and even a P-61 for catapult feasibility testing. The Bureau of Aeronautics already knew that B-25's could be launched from carriers, but wanted to know if they could be launched with catapults and so provided SEU with a Marine Corps PBJ-1H (BuNo 35277) which the Corps had acquired from the USAAF. The PBJ-1H was the same as the cannon armed B-25H, and, indeed, this particular airplane had started its life as USAAF 43-4700.

Much of their activities involved testing the tricycle landing geared Grumman F7F Tigercat. No tricycle gear aircraft had ever been in carrier service and there was great concern over possible fuselage and nose damage resulting from the stress of off-center landings with a fixed, non-swiveling tailhook. Charlie Lane was project pilot and lost no time in demonstrating what an uneven cable friction load could do to the skin and frame of a nose-wheeled airplane. It was apparent that the arrestor hook needed to be relocated further forward and have swivel capability if the F7F was to ever carrier qualify. To further prove their points of hook location and swivel, Bottomley sought and received permission for BuAer to include their PBJ-1H in catapult and shipboard handling tests. An SBD tail hook assembly(the SBD was considered to have the most reliable tailhook arrangement) was installed on the PBJ and it was readied for further testing. In land based tests conducted at USCGAS Cape May an unexpected problem appeared: with full-flight engagement of the arresting gear, the single pilot's seat lock would disengage and let the pilot and seat slide forward onto the yoke. This was a big surprise the first time it happened and certainly not a happy event for Bottomley. As a solution, a steel strap was welded to the top of the seat from the bulkhead behind the pilot to keep the seat in place.

On November 15, 1944, three aircraft were successfully tested for arrested landings and catapult launches aboard USS Shangri-La. Charlie Lane successfully demonstrated the results of relocating the swivel arrestor hook on the F7F. Bob Elder put an arrestor hook equipped P-51 through its paces.

And then it was Bottomley's turn in the PBJ. Bottomley told the story:

" . . . it was amazing how easily the PB| swung into the groove and picked up a wire. The ensuing catapult shot was a breeze, as was the next landing. Then the PBJ was struck below for handling tests on the hangar deck. The main wheels had been designed to turn sideways to ease the plane into tight spots, so BuAer and AirLant staff observers were all over, in and under the PBJ.
"Everything had gone so well it was determined no further shipboard tests were necessary and I taxied into position on the catapult. I had planned to take just the plane captain, Koffel, and Chief Photo Mate Hicks back to Philadelphia direct from the ship. However, Lieutenant Jim Daniels, the SEU catapult officer, talked me into letting him ride over the bottom hatch below the cockpit with Koffel. Chief Hicks sat in the cannoneer seat to my right.
"When the catapult fired, the yoke flew out of my hands as the pilot's seat slid back into the bulkhead, doubling up the steel jury straps that were only designed to keep the seat from moving forward. Some observer on the ship had apparently tried to adjust the pilot seat position and the latch had never re-positioned in its track slot. There we were, airborne off the bow with no one near the controls. But thank God for Jim Daniels! Jim had played tackle for the Georgia Tech Rose Bowl team immortalized by "Wrong Way" Right. With one shove of his mighty arm that seat went back along the tracks into position where I could grab the yoke and reach the wheels-up lever. We then departed for NAS Norfolk, landing an hour later none the worse for our experience."

Syd Bottomley left SEU in June 1945 and continued his naval career attaining the rank of Captain. In the course of his wartime service he was awarded the Navy Cross, the Distinguished Flying Cross with Gold Star, six Air Medals, and the Presidential Unit Citation. His campaign awards include: American Defense Service Medal, Fleet Clasp; American Campaign Medal; and the World War II Victory Medal.

 

[AUniqueNameIsNeeded]

Wohoo, I struck gold! Found this on a website and they claim it is the only known photo of a B-25/PBJ landing on a carrier. This was from the test R Leonard
talked about. Thanks for the info Leonard. I don't usually care for long post, but that one was well worth the read!

 

[GrauGeist]

There's quite a few photos of the PBJ-H1 coming and going from the Shangri-La, some even in color.

 

[N4521U]

So they had a big guy in the tail throw the hook out and hang on for dear life??????

 

[buffnut453]

Pretty sure they were to land in China

You're absolutely right. The plan was for the B-25s to land in China where they would form the nucleus of a volunteer bomber organization ostensibly titled "2nd AVG" (the "1st AVG" being the pursuit organization, aka "The Flying Tigers" with which we're all familiar).

It should be noted that as late as November 1941, there were also plans for the British Commonwealth to contribute to the "International Air Force" in China. Plans were well-advanced to provide one squadron of Blenheim bombers and a squadron of Buffalo fighters as the starting-point for this effort.

 

[fliger747]

There wasn't enough fuel available for a round trip, they barely made it to the China mainland as it was. Then for a bunch of Army guys to try to find a carrier...

Without folding wings some interesting pivoting on the deck edge elevator would be necessary to get the plane below!

 

[Gnomey]

Dolittle raids were for China. Though it ponders the question of largest aircraft to successfully land/take off from a carrier...

 

[R Leonard]

...Without folding wings some interesting pivoting on the deck edge elevator would be necessary to get the plane below!

No deck edge elevators on a Yorktown class carrier.

 

[fubar57]

I know of a C-130

​

 

[GrauGeist]

I know of a C-130

I believe that's the record for the largest to land/take-off from any carrier, too.

By the way, this would have been a cool option for our carriers during the war!

 

[MIflyer]

Some of the Doolittle Raiders did stay in China and fly combat missions there in B-25's (e.g, My High School Math teacher) but they were not flying the same B-25's they launched with, all of which had crashed, except for the one that landed in the USSR.

By the way, only 15 B-25's were supposed to launch from the USS Hornet. No.16 was there because two pilots picked ups B-25 and took it to Eglin, where they found the rest of the Raiders had left, so they followed them to Oakland, CA. Lt Col Doolittle was very P.O.ed that those guys had done that and ordered them and their B-25 put aboard the ship, just to maintain security. They formed up a crew after the Hornet left port and flew on the mission as well.

 

[fliger747]

Shangri-La was an Essex Class carrier. The Enterprise was the only of the three (nominal) Yorktown Class still afloat by 1944. The "Fighting Lady" was named after the CV lost at Midway.

The Herk was Piloted by Jimmy Flatley's son. I don't believe this was an "arrested" landing.

I had about 3000 hrs in the Herk and we did some flying for the Navy, but no carrier landings!

 

[fubar57]

Caught the wire at 1:10 in the video

 

[special ed]

Some where in my stuff, I have magazine photos of a U-2 landing and then taking off from a carrier. I cant remember if a hook was used but I think so. I'll look for the info if anyone cares. It is hard to find things since hurricane Katrina as I lost some books and photos and the survivors, since I moved, aren't shelved in order.