How would the Allies have dealt with large numbers of ME 262s?

[RCAFson]

How soon can the P-51H or equivalent be introduced in large numbers?

Another option would be to strip daylight bombers of all defensive armament except the tail turret, lighten the bomb loads and increase cruise speed to the maximum possible. This would reduce contact time with Luftwaffe fighters and reduce losses via Flak and probably reduce overall losses. It would also better match escort fighter and bomber cruise speeds.

 

[swampyankee]

How soon can the P-51H or equivalent be introduced in large numbers?

Another option would be to strip daylight bombers of all defensive armament except the tail turret, lighten the bomb loads and increase cruise speed to the maximum possible. This would reduce contact time with Luftwaffe fighters and reduce losses via Flak and probably reduce overall losses. It would also better match escort fighter and bomber cruise speeds.

I think that some people were doing operations research during and shortly after the war, and concluded that the defensive armament in the heavy bombers was, counter-intuitively, increasing casualties, as the gunners increased crew size without commensurate decrease in the probability of a plane's being lost.

 

[RCAFson]

I think that some people were doing operations research during and shortly after the war, and concluded that the defensive armament in the heavy bombers was, counter-intuitively, increasing casualties, as the gunners increased crew size without commensurate decrease in the probability of a plane's being lost.

Exactly. I think the Allies had lots of cards to play if the Me-262 appeared sooner and in greater numbers.

 

[davebender]

They will until Allies land an invasion force along channel coast. Germany needs that space for forward deployment of air raid warning units and night fighter units.

 

[Shortround6]

Another option would be to strip daylight bombers of all defensive armament except the tail turret, lighten the bomb loads and increase cruise speed to the maximum possible. This would reduce contact time with Luftwaffe fighters and reduce losses via Flak and probably reduce overall losses. It would also better match escort fighter and bomber cruise speeds.

Deleting a good portion of the armament actually does very little for an existing design. See the difference in performance for some of the British bomber's transport versions. The British were very slow to adopt cruising at a max lean cruise power which could increase cruising speeds without impacting either load or range by very much.
Operational ceiling would probably go up more than cruise speed.
A problem for the US is the large formations, Formation speed is governed by the worst aircraft in the formation on the outside of a turn. I am not sure if they figured in a battle damage allowance. Since stragglers were much more likely to get shot down the Formation may have cruised at less than max cruise in order to keep damaged aircraft in the formation (within reason, 3 engine aircraft might be too slow)

US top turrets were a lot lower than British top turrets and would likely have less drag, The ball turret might be another story and the bow turrets might have been ditched. Waist guns depend on covers/windows fitted.

 

[F-16]

Did the Soviets not made the best anti-air fire at some stage or was it artillery, I saw it on Discovery Channel firing multiple missiles short after each other, looked very modern for it's time. I believe this installation could also be forwarded by horses to make it mobile in slobbery surfaces. Anyway, they would have made better anti-air (I think) if there were more dangerous planes.

 

[razor1uk]

Stalins Organ(s) ...no not that one, otherwise known as Katushka, ground to ground bombardment/artillery rockets I believe from your description F16.
The early rockets were initially aerial rockets fired from bomber interceptors, converted to fire from truck or trailer mounted frames of rails.

 

[bobbysocks]

i dont believe daylight bombing would have ceased unless all other avenues failed. i am sure the allies would have tried several different tactics and adapted. every scheme and effort would be put into catching the 262s flatfooted...on the ground or taking off. i think it can be done.

 

[Civettone]

Put a lot more effort into getting their jets fielded, of course. The jets -- Meteor, P-80, Vampire -- could probably have been pushed into squadron service several months earlier than historical. That they were not available over the skies of Europe was because they were not needed, not because the US and UK were incapable.

They did not have the range to operate over Germany.

The allies would still have shot them down, plenty were shot down. Hans Fey explained quite nicely how to do it. The only advantage it had was speed and this could be negated when the jet was attacked from an advantageous position.

The Me 262 was superior to the P-51, the same way the P-51 was superior to the 109 and 190: its speed! The P-51s ONLY chance to kill a Me 262 was to surprise a Me 262 by diving down on it and momentarily match its speed. (Or of course circling over its airfield) The Me 262 had superior speed and climb rate. It could break off at will. The P-51 had to rely on manoeuvrability to escape from a Me 262. Unfortunately, this is also what the Japanese Zero had left when compared to the F-6F and P-47, or all those agile planes of the countries Germany conquered in 1940/1941. They were all more manoeuvrable than the Bf 109, but it was of no use: the Bf 109 held the advantage that it could break off the fight and reinitiate it if it saw a chance. That, I think, is the single most important lesson of WW2 aerial combat.

i dont believe daylight bombing would have ceased unless all other avenues failed. i am sure the allies would have tried several different tactics and adapted. every scheme and effort would be put into catching the 262s flatfooted...on the ground or taking off. i think it can be done.

You are sure it can be done, but you fail to come up with one suggestion? I guess that is what they mean by blind faith? Faith in the invincibility of the Allied air forces...

Kris

 

[Erich]

due to extreme measures 262 Nf's flew off grass fields and then finally on day missions against the soviets and the RAF. thre were n losses due to Allied encounters just accidents and pilot errors. the 262 S/E would of performed well had it been ordered too against BC 4 engines the B-1/A-1 faired only to shoot down only 1 Mossie but was seen if developed further to remit the bugs in the variant would of been possibly the ultimate nf machine for either side. I have spoken for years on this site what the if of a B-2 and sub-variants would of been with enclosed fuel cells and streamlining, enclosed AI. arms would of been reduced to longer range 2cm weapons. Allied countermeasures would of been tough to catch the bird except destroy in on known fields but as I said late war the Welter unit was broadcasted on satellite fields nothing was really known of whereabouts for security reasons.

let me to the above posts about 262's during the day ops one problem all pilots had was turning radius because of excess speed the P-51 could turn inside nearly all times to bring a side shot to the jets fuselage.....in the flat out of course forget it.

 

[bobbysocks]

i dont have all the intelligence that they had...but to humor you i will make a suggestion. i would have the raf bomb those bases at night. i would train 51 pilots in night fighting and bombing. then i would have them take off so that they arrive at the those fields just about day break. I would have them coming in low and fast use conventional bombs and napalm. i already said i would have a group(s) futher out in front of the bomber boxes for early warning and a group(s) flying even higher top cover so that if 262 were encountered they would have the alt to hopefully catch them. the jets didnt have a long flight time so again i would be concentrating forces on nearby airdromes and catch them as they landed. that is just for starters...

 

[razor1uk]

Daylight bombing did start to come close to be postponed until new tactics and theories and or aircraft were available, but within a few months of those black mournful days, the escorts were freed to try and break the LW's back so to speak.

 

[Erich]

it's all in perspective in fact the "future" LW jet bases were to made underground with slight upsloping ramps................... the race against the inevitable time machine the LW did not have on it's side. Welters men raced from the east side trying to get behind soviet lines and steal necessary fuels for it's jets to counter BC A/C..................ha ha but what a story it is of insanity.

 

[razor1uk]

Like the last ditch panzers rush for Antwerp then... always those decisive dice throws towards victorious gambles, that could've been more sound strategic/tactical options had more planning for supplies, forces, fuels and certainly less enemies about (or closer to actual realisations of the force dispositions against them).

 

[Civettone]

let me to the above posts about 262's during the day ops one problem all pilots had was turning radius because of excess speed the P-51 could turn inside nearly all times to bring a side shot to the jets fuselage.....in the flat out of course forget it.

Yeah, I read about that too. Evading the Me 262 and then turning back inwards to strafe the passing Me 262. A very difficult manoeuvre, yet some American pilots actually shot down Me 262 like this. It requires excellent control over your aircraft and excellent gunnery.

For what it's worth, the Me 262 as a jet conserved speed/energy much better than piston engined fighters. It would get into trouble if it broke its golden rule: don't get drawn into a low speed turn fight, but keep your up. Sounds familiar? Yeah, it's also the motto of the P-51 pilot.

Kris

 

[parsifal]

Interesting thread guys. My opinion is that an Me 262 force delivered from mid-43, would have begun to have an effect from mid-44 on daylight operationsd, and from late 44 on night operations. 262s with none of the teething problems affecting operational units is a very dangerous proposition, but not a complete war winner. And, it would come at a price. Overcoming the 262 problems means more resources going into the program, means less resources on the conventional piston engined program, means a harder time for the LW whilst they work up their uber fighter.

Then ther is the issue of what the allies would do in reply. If in 41-42 the allies got wind of the German accelarated development of the 262, they are likley to respond in kind. instead of the F1 entering service mid 44, we would likley see it introduced mid 43. The F3 would appear 3-6 months later, but the allies would need to continue development up to the F8 standard. Historically the F8 did not appear until 1950, with development taking about a year, and then on a strictly peacetime basis. It took about a year of development to get the F-8 up and going, but because it was a development of existing types, would not have suffered great operational difficulties on introduction (as was the historical case...it service introduction was painless and seamless). Under wartime accelarated conditions, I think the Meteor F8 would start to see extensive service delivery from about June 1945. The Meteor F-8 was a long range, high performance fighter, able to travel from Japan to northern Korea, and engage the MiG 15 (with difficulty) so I dont see it as being particualalry troubled by the historical models of the 262.

The introduction of the 262, eclipses the piston era aircraft, but it comes at a price, and it merely swings the aircraft performance debate back in favour of the Germans for a period, not permananetly. It is an advantage, but it is not a panacea for German problems.

 

[davebender]

P-51 could also turn inside modern day F-22. That won't keep the P-51 from losing most aerial engagements with jet aircraft flown by properly trained pilots.

 

[davebender]

Accelerated development isn't necessary. Just place Jumo 004A engine into mass production during 1943.

 

[Shortround6]

They did not have the range to operate over Germany.

Berlin no, Ruhr yes, see P-80 pilots Manual.

The Me 262 was superior to the P-51, the same way the P-51 was superior to the 109 and 190: its speed! The P-51s ONLY chance to kill a Me 262 was to surprise a Me 262 by diving down on it and momentarily match its speed. (Or of course circling over its airfield) The Me 262 had superior speed and climb rate. It could break off at will. The P-51 had to rely on manoeuvrability to escape from a Me 262. Unfortunately, this is also what the Japanese Zero had left when compared to the F-6F and P-47, or all those agile planes of the countries Germany conquered in 1940/1941. They were all more manoeuvrable than the Bf 109, but it was of no use: the Bf 109 held the advantage that it could break off the fight and reinitiate it if it saw a chance. That, I think, is the single most important lesson of WW2 aerial combat.

P-51 had a few more tricks up it's sleeve than just speed against the 109 and 190. climb against the 262 seems variable. The 262 may have zoom climb but sustained climb may depend on the weight that the planes are operating at.

You are sure it can be done, but you fail to come up with one suggestion? I guess that is what they mean by blind faith? Faith in the invincibility of the Allied air forces...

One trick might be to shift to low level raids with small groups. Run the Jets out of fuel. A P-80 used about twice the fuel at sea level as it did at 35,000ft. The 262 shouldn't be much different.

 

[razor1uk]

Being able to turn inside a much faster opponent means not alot if you gunnery aim isn't timely and accurate or within appropirate range.

While most recips' could turn easily inside the 262 and try to aim into his trajectory, a skilled pilot might just turn his 'O' into an 'S' or an '8' and break away from the orbit and force the recip to change direction and bleed acceleration/vector energy. Or the jet lets the recip continue around in the hope it'd force the jet or overshoot into the recips sights. But some that is knowledge is more post war based upon energy theory perhaps.

This is considering the much greater radius and hence likely a smoother control of the 262s vector vs the tighter and smaller radius of the recips turn/arc, a fact that is sometimes ignored in argument when discussing general horizontal combat.

Mind that assuming the jet knew his weakness and advantages and his opponent(s too) and was only one on one/1 vs 1/plane-o et plane-o at similar altitude.

Late war, the training situations and skill levels were less than recommended or ideal for the LW, and so, most new to fresh pilots didn't know that as well as they most lilely wished, nor have absorded and survived the critical 5th+ mission to gain enough of the basics of combat awareness smoother aircraft control. Being told and studying facts are one thing next to being able to do them in the heat/strain/rush of actual combat.

But assuming they could have at least some more basic flight hours flight understanding prior to 262 selection/conversion... for fitting in more to the topic of this thread.