If italy Joined the allies World War 2

[GrauGeist]

This situation has Italy declare war in sept 1939
the spitfires were not in large numbers during the battle of Britain let alone battle of france
and the Italian c.200 and g.50 were comparable to the hurricanes
cr.42 and 32 would have been ok in defending the airspace too

By September 1939, the RAF had 187 Spitfires in service with 119 in reserve.
By September 1939, the Regia Aeronautica only had 89 G.50s and 77 MC.200s in service.

 

[pops-paolo]

By September 1939, the RAF had 187 Spitfires in service with 119 in reserve.
By September 1939, the Regia Aeronautica only had 89 G.50s and 77 MC.200s in service.

by 1940, around the battle of France there were a bit more

 

[GrauGeist]

by 1940, around the battle of France there were a bit more

There was a bit more all across the board, but since you mentioned Italy declaring war in 1939...
And to add to the above numbers:
In 1939, Germany had 449 Bf109s and several He112s.

 

[pops-paolo]

There was a bit more all across the board, but since you mentioned Italy declaring war in 1939...
And to add to the above numbers:
In 1939, Germany had 449 Bf109s and several He112s.

yes but in the scenario, the allies waited for Germany to invade like they did in real life
but to be honest if they had Italy they might have pushed Germanys weak defences in 1939

 

[pops-paolo]

How exactly is invading another country remaining neutral? The Soviets and Germans had a non-aggression pact that divided up the spoils of eastern Europe. Tell the Poles, Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians and Finns that the Soviet occupation of their land was to protect them from Nazi aggression. While not formally allied, the Soviets were definitely not neutral. What is true is that the western powers did not declare war on the Soviet Union when they occupied the eastern half of Poland, nor did they attempt to interfere with the Soviet occupation of the Baltic states, other to send a bit of war material to Finland, when they resisted the Soviet ultimatum.

so true so many look past this because the soviets helped us defeat the nazis but little do these num nums realize one powerful, terrible dictator was replaced by another.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

so true so many look past this because the soviets helped us defeat the nazis but little do these num nums realize one powerful, terrible dictator was replaced by another.

A lot of folks have no idea that these two worked together for almost two years before Germany turned on the USSR.

 

[GrauGeist]

yes but in the scenario, the allies waited for Germany to invade like they did in real life
but to be honest if they had Italy they might have pushed Germanys weak defences in 1939

In 1939, Germany had a top of the line airforce and a top of the line Army, both well equipped and well trained - they were anything but weak.
Italy's decision to declare war on Germany in 1943 when Germany was getting hammered from all directions was about the only smart thing they did during WWII.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

612 sparievo bombers to bomb Munich or to be used as tactical bombing

Again, was there enough to mount a meaningful campaign against a formidable Luftwaffe?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Again, was there enough to mount a meaningful campaign against a formidable Luftwaffe?

... not to mention 88s.

 

[GrauGeist]

612 sparievo bombers to bomb Munich or to be used as tactical bombing

With a top speed of 290mph, they would have been dead meat against Bf109s and Bf110s.

 

[The Basket]

Austria had ceased to exist by 1939 so any conflict by Italy would be against this part of the German Reich and not Munich or Berlin.

I can see scenario where Italy stays neutral but I can't see Italy fighting against Germany. Italy adventures in Ethiopia and Spain led straight to Germany being an ally. And against the allies.

Once France falls then there is territory up for grabs. And could Mussolini resist? Could UK keep him neutral
? Maybe the importance of the Mediterranean meant that UK would have to try to destroy the Regia Marina regardless.

Italian force did stop the Nazis in 1934 with the Dollfuss assassination from taking over Austria. This was certainly the greatest friction between the two countries.

Hitler wanted Mussolini's green light for the Anschluss which Mussolini gave. Had Mussolini said no then this could have been the reason for conflict with Germany.

 

[ljadw]

How long do you estimate the Russians would need to mount an attack on Poland if the German attack on Poland was as much of a surprise to them as it was to Poland itself? Tosdig and WilliaM in 1066 coordinated their attacks. The Battle of Stamford Bridge near York was on 25th September (they landed weeks before) while the battle of Hastings was on 14 October. That is a coordinated attack, Stalin going into Poland was opportunism and real politik. Why should he accept any German army to camp on his border, he just moved the border further away.

The German attack on Poland was no surprise to the Soviets,neither to the Poles and the Wallies .

 

[ljadw]

The unspoken premise in your post is that the Poles knew the Soviets planned to invade. If they did not know that, they could not, speaking logically, have made a choice between one occupier and two. Did the Poles have foreknowledge of Soviet plans to invade on the 17th?

It seems to me that the Poles only had the choice of defending against the Germans, or rolling over and submitting. I think we here will all agree that that is no real choice at all.

The only choice the Poles made regarding the presence of Soviet troops on their territory, to my knowledge, was to categorically reject that avenue of assistance when the pact with UK and France was being hammered out and the Brits (iirc) floated the idea as one way of addressing the German threat. That's according to Shirer, but I don't have the book handy and can't give the page number.

When the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact became public,it was obvious for every one that
a Hitler would attack very soon Poland
b that he would let Easteren Poland to the Soviets,because the Soviets opposed a German occupation of a region mainly populated by Ukrainians .

 

[GrauGeist]

When the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact became public,it was obvious for every one that
a Hitler would attack very soon Poland
b that he would let Easteren Poland to the Soviets,because the Soviets opposed a German occupation of a region mainly populated by Ukrainians .

What the hell are you talking about.
Do you even know European geography??

 

[pbehn]

When the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact became public,it was obvious for every one that
a Hitler would attack very soon Poland
b that he would let Easteren Poland to the Soviets,because the Soviets opposed a German occupation of a region mainly populated by Ukrainians .

I cant be bothered with this nonsense anymore, we all know how it ends.

 

[ljadw]

What the hell are you talking about.
Do you even know European geography??

I think that I know European geography better than you .
And I see that you are unaware of the existence of the OUN which tried to assassinate Pilsudski and assassinated the Polish minister of interior.
The OUN was also very hostile to the USSR ,but the Ukrainians collaborated at the end of WWI with the Germans .
Thus, it was not in the interest of Stalin that Hitler would occupy the easteren parts of Poland .
When Hitler attacked the USSR in June 1941, the OUN collaborated initially with him : the infamous Nachtigall Batallion .
The alternative ,which was : Stalin doing nothing and remaining idle in September 1939,would not be better for the USSR, not be better for Poland and not be better for the Wallies .
Stalin accepted the incorporation of parts of Ukraine to Poland, but he would never accept that these parts would be a part of Gross Deutschland,because Hitler could create an independent Ukrainian state .

 

[ljadw]

yes but in the scenario, the allies waited for Germany to invade like they did in real life
but to be honest if they had Italy they might have pushed Germanys weak defences in 1939

This is not correct : in WWI the Italians fought, without any success, several battles on the Isonzo, and finally suffered a big defeat at Caporetto when the Germans intervened.
Besides, the German defenses in the West were not weak in 1939 .
Last point : there were no Allies in September 1939 on the Western front,but only French : the first 2 British divisions arrived only in the last days of September and the Germans had a numerical superiority on the Western border.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

When the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact became public,it was obvious for every one that
a Hitler would attack very soon Poland

That is neither here nor there. The claim being bandied is that the attacks were simultaneous. They weren't. And any claim that they were coordinated should be supported. That too hasn't hapened.

b that he would let Easteren Poland to the Soviets,because the Soviets opposed a German occupation of a region mainly populated by Ukrainians .

I'm not arguing against that; indeed, I already pointed out that that was written into the M-R pact, in the secret clause.

I notice you didn't address my point about Poland's "choice" at all. Perhaps you missed it?

 

[Greg Boeser]

The Molotov - Ribbontrop Pact sealed the fate of Poland and the Baltic states. Hitler wanted Lebensraum in Poland, Stalin wanted the former territories of the Russian Empire. To say that the Soviets and Germans didn't coordinate the invasion of Poland is simply not tenable. The sectors to be occupied by each invader had been agreed upon before the invasion. German forces that had pushed beyond the agreed upon boundaries withdrew when the Soviet forces arrived, and turned over prisoners. Eastern Poland was territory incorporated into the nascent Polish state following the Polish - Soviet War of 1919-21, and was predominantly populated by Ukrainians, Jews, and Belarussians. Perhaps this is why the Western Powers did not strenuously object to Stalin's takeover, as this territory was not part of the original Polish state created in the Treaty of Versailles.

 

[ljadw]

It seems to me that the Poles only had the choice of defending against the Germans, or rolling over and submitting. I think we here will all agree that that is no real choice at all.

I disagree with this :
CZ had 2 choices : to say no to Hitler or to say yes to Hitler . They said yes because they knew that the West could not save them and that after the defeat of Hitler ,they would become a Soviet satellite .
Poland also had the same 2 choices :
they said no to Hitler because initially they were convinced that Hitler was bluffing .He needed a deal with Stalin and he would never negotiate with Stalin . Thus Poland was safe .
after the M-R Pact, Poland continued to say no , because they knew that if they said yes, Hitler would still attack .
After the Pact Hitler could not say to Stalin : the Pact no longer exist,because Poland is accepting my demands and thus I will not invade her .
In 1908 (the Bosnia-Herzegovina crisis ) Russia received a German ultimatum,which was : to accept openly the annexation of BH and to abandon Serbia, or to refuse this demand and face war .
While Germany hoped that Russia would refuse and that it would have finally its war, Russia gave away, for several reasons,one of which was that France refused to support her .France had no intention to fight for something insignificant in the Balkans .
The same thing happened in the 2 Agadir crises .
In 1938 Austria also had 2 choices : to fight or to capitulate . For a lot of reasons, they capitulated .