If the RAF had been defeated in the Battle of Britain

[Tante Ju]

SAP bombs with a short delay were really required. Unfortunately the Luftwaffe did not have many such bombs in late 1940. The Sprengbombe Dickwandig (SD) ordnance only went up to 500Kg in late 1940. The Panzerdurchslags Cylindrisch (PC) ordnance was used against Illustrious in January 1941, but results for the 1,000Kg bomb were disappointing and the 1,400Kg version was developed later.

While I agree with your general assessment, it bothers me to see this mythical claim mentioned so often in these threads. I am curious for a source for this - from what I have seen the claim is unfounded. I am sure makers of the claim can support it figures of German bomb stocks by type.

You might also be interested in the PC - RS series of bombs.
PC 1000 Rs: Rocket-Propelled Bomb « Catalog of Enemy Ordnance

Your claim that the SD series only went up to 500 kg in late 1940 is also curious in view that 1 April 1940 Luftwaffe instructions mentioned already the SD 1000, SD 1400, PC 1000, SC 1800 etc.
http://www.theairtacticalassaultgroup.com/wiki/doku.php?id=usebomb

 

[silence]

Why not include December '41 for capital ships sunk and add Prince of Wales and Renown along with Pearl Harbor? Why not Midway? The Dauntlesses did a pretty good job against maneuvering Japanese carriers.

The Germans don't need to sink the RN ships, only mission kill them. HE bombs can tear up everything above the armor deck - including fire control and AA. If the RN has to dodge bombs their firing solutions for surface ships are not going to be very good.

The RN will also see a lot more Stukas than they faced at Crete: the LW had almost three times as many for the BoB as they did for Crete. They'll also face strafing fighters, which can do nasty things to exposed AA gunners in the octuple pom-poms.

 

[stona]

I think the claim goes back to Galland's recollection of the bombs available to the Luftwaffe in 1940 which must itself have been second hand. The source for many authors' claims about the doubt when the Germans introduced their SD and PC bombs, particularly the heavier ones, is probably "Air Power and the Royal Navy, 1914-1945" by G Till, published in 1979. I don't have a copy and don't know his source.

It's a bit of a moot point since even if the B-2 could in fact carry a 1000Kg weapon (contrary to my loading plan, but according to many reputable sources) it certainly couldn't carry anything larger. I'd have to check, but I don't think that the Jumo 211 D engined B-2 equipped most Luftwaffe Ju 87 units in September 1940 in any case . I can't find any pictures, after a quick look, of a B series JU 87 carrying anything bigger than a 500Kg bomb either, but I'll happily be corrected.

The limited endurance of the Ju 87 (about 300Km) before the introduction of the R is also often overlooked by proponents of Sea Lion.

The first PC1400 bombs reported by the British were found in the Bristol area in 1942. The British surmised that the larger bombs were developed due to the inability of the 1000Kg version(s) to sink a large ship like HMS Illustrious despite several hits.

Given that the British usually found unexploded versions of new bombs or mines, and ordnance fitted with new fuses or timers within days or weeks (often days) of their deployment I doubt that they were in use much earlier. Certainly not in 1940

Cheers

Steve

 

[redcoat]

We can forget the torpedo bombers, the He 111s of KG 26 were the only ones trained to do this, and their record even later, was woeful. It wasn't helped by the unreliability of the German torpedoes. The one thing that the RNs anti aircraft defences could hit was something coming in low (below 40 degree elevation) straight and slow.

The He 111 only became operational with torpedoes in 1941, in 1940 the only aircraft capable of torpedo attacks in the Luftwaffe were the He 59 and He 112 floatplanes, and it should be noted that at one point in September 1940 the Luftwaffe only had 32 torpedoes in stock.
By the end of 1940 the Luftwaffe had used over 160 torpedoes in combat, and for this they managed to sink 7 or 8 merchant ships.

 

[redcoat]

The RN will also see a lot more Stukas than they faced at Crete: the LW had almost three times as many for the BoB as they did for Crete. .

On August 13 1940, the Luftwaffe had 311 Ju 87's in their OOB for the BOB, during the invasion of Crete they had approximately 230-250 available

 

[Tante Ju]

I think the claim goes back to Galland's recollection of the bombs available to the Luftwaffe in 1940 which must itself have been second hand. The source for many authors' claims about the doubt when the Germans introduced their SD and PC bombs, particularly the heavier ones, is probably "Air Power and the Royal Navy, 1914-1945" by G Till, published in 1979. I don't have a copy and don't know his source.

However the above Luftwaffe document from April 1940 makes clear that the Luftwaffe possessed both large, armor piercing and rocket assisted armor piercing bombs as of April 1940 suitable against ships, particularly the older ones. So G Till seems to be in error.

It's a bit of a moot point since even if the B-2 could in fact carry a 1000Kg weapon (contrary to my loading plan, but according to many reputable sources) it certainly couldn't carry anything larger. I'd have to check, but I don't think that the Jumo 211 D engined B-2 equipped most Luftwaffe Ju 87 units in September 1940 in any case . I can't find any pictures, after a quick look, of a B series JU 87 carrying anything bigger than a 500Kg bomb either, but I'll happily be corrected. The limited endurance of the Ju 87 (about 300Km) before the introduction of the R is also often overlooked by proponents of Sea Lion.

The Ju 87R was present in Norway IIRC or introduced at around the same time. The standard Ju 87B could carry an 1000 kger, I tend to believe it was more of a question of adding the suitable bombing rack, but the problem is moot since the rocket assisted PC 500 RS series were developed just to address the problem of anti shipping strikes from low altitude.

There was also the Ju 88 of course, which could carry large bombs and far away.

The first PC1400 bombs reported by the British were found in the Bristol area in 1942. The British surmised that the larger bombs were developed due to the inability of the 1000Kg version(s) to sink a large ship like HMS Illustrious despite several hits.

Given that the British usually found unexploded versions of new bombs or mines, and ordnance fitted with new fuses or timers within days or weeks (often days) of their deployment I doubt that they were in use much earlier. Certainly not in 1940.

Certainly this logic is very flawed. what british intel speculation about german equipment (which was very often bordering phantasmagoria, see "fake smoke" devices speculated on aircraft) is quite irrelevant as to what the Germans actually had. The larger bombs, especially the AP ones were meant against specially hard targets, which did not turn up either at sea in 1940 (for a destroyer sized target, the standard high capacity 250 kgers were more optimal). I doubt the British fished out many unexploded German bombs from the Channel or from the Dunkerque beaches... they had the ability to inspect a number of unexploded ones dropped on the mainland, but those represented the ones believed to be optimal against prime mainland targets (airfields, light housing and brick buildings, shops, factories, docks, ie. overwhelmingly 50 and 250 kgers were to be used against building with less than three levels, ie. practically all british housing). IOW, why would the Luftwaffe, in 1940, drop one-and-a-half ton armor piercing bombs on airfields, brick houses or docks...?

Obviously there was very little chance that the British would be aware of the larger bombs early.

 

[redcoat]

Can anyone tell me how the Luftwaffe will deal with any RN battlegroups timing their attack so they are entering the Channel area at night ??????

 

[silence]

Can anyone tell me how the Luftwaffe will deal with any RN battlegroups timing their attack so they are entering the Channel area at night ??????

Magic?
Big wide angle searchlights?

Actually, I would guess the KM will take up a blocking position. Depending on what formation the RN uses they may even last a few hours.

 

[silence]

On August 13 1940, the Luftwaffe had 311 Ju 87's in their OOB for the BOB, during the invasion of Crete they had approximately 230-250 available

Hmm... the number I found in a quick search were (obviously) different - like 414 vs. 150.

 

[stona]

Actually anti shipping bombs and mines were usually retrieved from the inter tidal zone after attempts to drop them on shipping or, in the case of mines, in shipping lanes. In the case of Bristol, it is the port with the biggest tides in England.

What is your source for the claim that a standard B could carry a 1000Kg bomb? None of my sources say that anything before the up engined B-2 could do this and the B-2 loading plan contradicts this. I still haven't found a picture of a "Bertha" with anything larger than a 500Kg bomb, as per the loading plan.

The first loading plan I have which allows a 1000Kg bomb is for the R-2 and it is this (being based on the B-2) which makes me wonder if this is why some sources say that the B-2 could also lift 1000Kg. They both used the Jumo 211 D.

Testing on the prototype R was carried out at Rechlin during April 1940 and the first order for 105 Ju 87 R-1s was placed in June 1940 so they certainly weren't available for the Norwegian campaign. I've seen claims that 1./St G 1 flew some in Norway but can't see how. The first order of R-1s which are just a B with added fuel tanks, were all delivered "by October" so some would have been available in the summer of 1940. Peter Smith's tables of Luftwaffe Ju 87 units deployed for the Battle of Britain show Bs and Rs. Two units with at least some Rs from a total strength of 36 serviceable aircraft. (Geschwader Stab St.G 1 and II./St.G.2)
The initial order was increased to 471 to be delivered by April 1941. 145 R-4s (with Jumo 211J) were ordered in March 1941. All irrelevant to Sea Lion.

Many units operating against Britain in August and September 1940 were still equipped with the B-1 powered by the Jumo 211 A

Cheers
Steve

 

[Shortround6]

Can anyone tell me how the Luftwaffe will deal with any RN battlegroups timing their attack so they are entering the Channel area at night ??????

By eating lots of carrots?



Having bombs in development or even tested, approved and cataloged does not necessarily mean available in large numbers. Granted all it takes is "one" (or two) but the bombs have to be brought from German to the French and low country airfields by train and truck and every "big" bomb is two or three smaller bombs not delivered. Handling the bigger bombs may be a bit more of a problem. It may not be, bomb trolleys and small cranes for unloading rail-cars trucks? Granted things like sheer legs can be rigged but again, how much man power and effort for one big bomb compared to handling smaller bombs?

Something else to consider is the amount of AA fire the British may be able to put up. Off Crete and Mediterranean convoys the ships were at sea and in combat zones for several days and hundreds of miles from supply points.

Many of the Cruisers a "nominal" magazine capacity of 250 rounds per 4" gun(including practice ammo) which, with the gun firing at 12 rounds per minute ( and they could do better) was good for 21 minutes? This amount of ammo (firing time) had to be spread out over several days and a number of attacks. 2pdr ammo varied from 720-750 rpg on the older Battleships to 1800rpg on the reconstructed ones and many cruisers up to 3500 rpg on the Tribal destroyers. Allowing for a 'practical" rate of fire of 80 rpg that is 9 to 22.5 minutes firing time for most anything but a Tribal class destroyer. Depending on the "mission" the RN ships might be subject to air attack for several hours before sundown at the start of the mission and several hours after sunrise and the end of the mission before being in harbor and resupplying for the next nights raid/strike.
The Luftwaffe may be able to mount more intense missions/strikes due to the short distances but they will be facing AA fire that was more intense than the "normal" AA fire seen in the Med. This does not mean the RN is invulnerable by any means but it does mean that the successes scored by the Luftwaffe in the Med ( with more training/experience in anti-ship work) might not translate to equal success in the Channel.

 

[Shortround6]

Magic?
Big wide angle searchlights?

Actually, I would guess the KM will take up a blocking position. Depending on what formation the RN uses they may even last a few hours.

Tough to block from Kiel and Trondheim. It might be the RN who takes up blocking positions to keep the KM from getting near the Channel. I am not sure how willing the KM was to run large ships though waters that contained British submarines, they might have done if pressed and they all may have made it through.... or several ships heavily damaged/sunk before they even made to contact with the RN surface ships. And the KM didn't have ANY ships larger than a destroyer ( and darn few of them) they could afford to loose at this point.

 

[stona]

Hmm... the number I found in a quick search were (obviously) different - like 414 vs. 150.

For numbers of Ju 87s available (not necessarily serviceable) I'd go with somewhere around 320-350 in August 1940 and around 150 for Crete.

For Crete the Luftwaffe had a total of around 420-430 bombers of all types available. Is this where the confusion stems from?

Cheers

Steve

 

[Tante Ju]

Actually anti shipping bombs and mines were usually retrieved from the inter tidal zone after attempts to drop them on shipping or, in the case of mines, in shipping lanes. In the case of Bristol, it is the port with the biggest tides in England.

What is your source for the claim that a standard B could carry a 1000Kg bomb? None of my sources say that anything before the up engined B-2 could do this and the B-2 loading plan contradicts this. I still haven't found a picture of a "Bertha" with anything larger than a 500Kg bomb, as per the loading plan.

The first loading plan I have which allows a 1000Kg bomb is for the R-2 and it is this (being based on the B-2) which makes me wonder if this is why some sources say that the B-2 could also lift 1000Kg. They both used the Jumo 211 D.

I will try to look at sources when available. Difference between the B-1 and B-2 was marginal.

Testing on the prototype R was carried out at Rechlin during April 1940 and the first order for 105 Ju 87 R-1s was placed in June 1940 so they certainly weren't available for the Norwegian campaign. I've seen claims that 1./St G 1 flew some in Norway but can't see how. The first order of R-1s which are just a B with added fuel tanks, were all delivered "by October" so some would have been available in the summer of 1940. Peter Smith's tables of Luftwaffe Ju 87 units deployed for the Battle of Britain show Bs and Rs. Two units with at least some Rs from a total strength of 36 serviceable aircraft. (Geschwader Stab St.G 1 and II./St.G.2)
The initial order was increased to 471 to be delivered by April 1941. 145 R-4s (with Jumo 211J) were ordered in March 1941. All irrelevant to Sea Lion.

Well according to the unit table of StG 1 they had clearly reequipped with Ju 87R between March - July 1940.

Sturzkampfgeschwader 1

They wrecked havoc on Allied shipping between April - July 1940.

On 9 April I./StG took part in raids against Oscarsborg Fortress after it sank heavy cruiser Blücher. Soon afterwards the gruppe was takes with naval interdiction. Its primary target was the Royal Navy's Home Fleet. The same day, the unit hit the 600 ton torpedo boat Aeger in the engine room. It was run aground and scuttled.[3] The units first loss occurred in 19 April. While attacking HMS Cairo, Leutnant Karl Pfeil and his gunner Gerhard Winkels were shot down and captured near Namsos. The same day, a British raid by Fleet Air Arm Blackburn Skua and Fairey Swordfish Aircraft destroyed six Ju 87s near Trondhiem/Vaernes from carriers HMS Ark Royal and HMS Glorious. Ju 87s did manage to sink anti-submarine trawlers Siretoco, Jardine and Warwickshire. HMS Bittern was badly damaged and sunk by HMS Juno. Later, on 1 May 1940, I. Gruppe failed to hit Ark Royal during an interdiction against British naval forces off the coast.[4] Staffelkapitan of 2 Staffel, Oberleutnant Heinz Bohne claimed to have hit the carrier (he did not) and failed to mention in his report that he lost one of his Ju 87s (Oberfeldwebel Erich Stahl and Unteroffizier Friedrich Gott) to two Sea Gladiators of No. 802 Squadron RAF. This was the only loss on 1 May.

The next few missions on the afternoon of 1 May and 3 May, the Ju 87s had more success. The French large destroyer Bison was sunk along with HMS Afridi by I./Sturzkampfgeschwader 1 on 3 May 1940 during the evacuation from Namsos. Bison's forward magazine had been hit killing 108 of the crew. Affridi, who had attempted to rescue Bison's survivors was sunk with the loss of 63 sailors. On 4 May Ju 87s of I. Gruppe sank Norwegian steamers Blaafjeld, Sekstant, Pan and Aafjorld.[5] On 8 May Gruppenkommandeur Hauptmann Paul-Werner Hozzel, Oblt. Elmar Schaefer and Lt. Martin Möbus and veteran observer Unteroffizier Gerhard Grenzel, became the first Stuka crews to receive the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. Grenzel was the first NCO in the Luftwaffe to receive the award.[6]

On 24 May 1940 I. Gruppe sank the Norwegian trawler Ingrid in Bodo harbour. The Gruppe suffered one loss; Feldwebel Kurt Zube, to a No. 263 squadron Gladiator. He was rescued by German forces. I. Gruppe also took part in the Battles of Narvik. Heinz Bohne and his gunner was killed on 2 June 1940 over Narvik. He was the victim of Sgt. H H Kitchener and Flt Lt A T Williams of No. 263 Squadron RAF. Two Ju 87s were shot down on the morning of the 2 June 1940. Lt Klaus Kuber and his gunner were killed, the victim of a No. 43 Squadron RAF Hawker Hurricane. Mk. I flown by Sgt B L Taylor whilst Feldwebel Hans Ott and his gunner Sonderfuhrer Brack fell victim to Flg Off. John F Drummond.[7]

On 14 July 1940 StG 1 engaged various convoys heading westward through the English Channel. II./StG 1 and IV.(St). Lehrgeschwader 1 sank five ships between them, including HMS Boreas and HMS Brilliant. Two II. Gruppe machines were lost. The same day III. Gruppe Ju 87s were forced to abandon a raid on Portland Harbour when engaged by RAF fighters. They suffered one shot down and two damaged.[9]
The last major convoy action took place on 8 August 1940 against Convoy CW 9 (Peewit), comprising 20 merchant ships and nine naval vessels. Two Stuka attacks were organised. The first involved StG 1 who lost two Ju 87s and two damaged. A second attack from 60 Ju 87s of I. StG 1, III./StG 2 and III./StG 3 resulted in the destruction of four merchant ships and damaged seven. In exchange three I./StG 3 Ju 87s were lost and another four damaged.[10] A third attack sank Empire Crusader.[11]

In mid-August StG 1 was ordered to cease missions owing to the Ju 87s unacceptable losses. It continued operating over the channel until February 1941.[12]

 

[silence]

Tough to block from Kiel and Trondheim. It might be the RN who takes up blocking positions to keep the KM from getting near the Channel. I am not sure how willing the KM was to run large ships though waters that contained British submarines, they might have done if pressed and they all may have made it through.... or several ships heavily damaged/sunk before they even made to contact with the RN surface ships. And the KM didn't have ANY ships larger than a destroyer ( and darn few of them) they could afford to loose at this point.

Except for Sea Lion the German are proactive rather than reactive. They can tell the KM when to move, while the RN has to wait for it to happen. As far a big ships they can afford to lose, that's a command decision which will be weighed against the goal of the operation: is it worth losing some or all of you big ships in the interests of invasion?

And the RN will in all likelihood have to run a u-boat gauntlet, and ASW at this time was no where near what it was in '43, especially at night.

Regardless of the finer details, should invasion be attempted the Channel and maybe the North Sea are going to be redder than Stalin's pajamas.

 

[stona]

Anyone want to see how to land a tank in 1940?

It took them twenty minutes, flat calm and nobody shooting at them.

Those folding ramps and steel "Krupp" ramps I've sometimes seen posted as evidence of German landing capabilities did not exist in 1940.

Cheers

Steve

 

[stona]

I will try to look at sources when available. Difference between the B-1 and B-2 was marginal.
Well according to the unit table of StG 1 they had clearly reequipped with Ju 87R between March - July 1940.12][/I]

The B-1 and B-2 had different engines. 200 extra horses might or might not be a marginal difference, depending on your point of view. I'm still waiting for evidence that the Jumo 211 A powered B-1 could hoist a 1000Kg bomb. I believe that the B-2 might have, despite the loading plan and lack of photographic evidence.

If Stg 1 was reequipped with Rs at that time both Peter Smith, who lists some with the units I listed above in the summer of 1940, and Eddie Creek from who the production information comes are wrong.

Cheers

Steve

 

[stona]

Some more invasion vessels.

A kapok raft which was a failure.......because it sank!

The English Channel is not an inland lake, though I doubt that some of these would hold together on a lake. On the open sea, with winds, currents and tides this whole fleet of rafts would have sunk without any intervention from the British at all. The Germans were well aware of this too.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Shortround6]

Except for Sea Lion the German are proactive rather than reactive. They can tell the KM when to move, while the RN has to wait for it to happen. As far a big ships they can afford to lose, that's a command decision which will be weighed against the goal of the operation: is it worth losing some or all of you big ships in the interests of invasion?

Big ships available to the Germans are ONE pocket battleship/heavy cruiser with 11 in guns, ONE heavy cruiser with 8in guns, TWO light cruisers with 6in guns in turrets, one light cruiser with 6in guns in single mounts ( employed as training ship in the Baltic) and two left over PRE-WW I Battleships. These had been used in Norway but only in the waters near Denmark. Top speed when new was 18-19knots and at 32 years of age? ability to run within 4-5 knots of top speed for long periods of time was always a problem for reciprocating engined ships. Any other Large German ships are either repairing torpedo/bomb damage or just "commissioned" and still doing shake-down/first training cruise.

And the RN will in all likelihood have to run a u-boat gauntlet, and ASW at this time was no where near what it was in '43, especially at night.

To run a true U-boat gauntlet would require NOT deploying a number of U-boats to the Atlantic or Western Approaches at this time. Germans were having some trouble with torpedoes at this time? Granted ASW is now where near what is was in 1943 but then how good is the German ASW to stop the British subs? Germans have 10 or less modern/ large destroyers, eight steam torpedo boats ( equal to WW I destroyers?) a few fast escorts/sloops and some minesweeper trawlers. Anything else aside from motor S and R boats is under construction.

Regardless of the finer details, should invasion be attempted the Channel and maybe the North Sea are going to be redder than Stalin's pajamas.

True, but the British Navy has the size to take some losses, the German Fleet and invasion force do not.

 

[swampyankee]

To paraphrase: the KM is fighting for lunch; the RN for survival. Historically, we know what the British (among others; there wer also Dutch vessels involved) people did for the evacuation at Dunkirk: they took unarmed vessels across the Channel to evacuate British (and French; over 100,000 French soldiers were evacuate) soldiers. The Luftwaffe didn't just sit back and let this happen (nor did the Heer do so: French soldiers held the perimeter against them).

Does anybody really think the people of the UK would do less when national survival is at stake?