- Thread starter
- #101
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
The 439th only loses 1 plane in this video, that of W/O Church, who was shot down by Ufz Rey.... Havent been able to find any code or serial info for his crate.....
III./JG54, Black Friday, 29 Dec 1944...
- Thread starter lesofprimus
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- #102
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Found the code for Churchs' crate:
MN791
And a diary log from the mission.... Anyone else agree that they had rockets and NO bombs???
MN791 Shot down south of Coesfeld by a FW-190 on the 29 Dec 1944. Blue 3 - (F/O Laurence) having knocked out two already and to the north he saw a FW 190 and a Typhoon (Blue 4, R87186 W/O 1 Church, S.A.) dog fighting and then the Typhoon spun into earth and burst into flames. WO Church managed to bail out and was captured, finishing the remainder of the war as a POW.
W/O S.A. Church
Armed Recce 09:55 10:55
Details of Sortie or Flight
Our battle area over AACHEN BEING CLOSED IN, THE SQUADRON took off with no bombs to return to their old hunting ground in COSEFELD, Germany area. On arriving there they found a large layer of mist over the southern sector of the area commencing about 10 miles south of COESFELD. Red Flight found a train just south of COESFELD and made an attack on it but were met by a hail of light and heavy flak, and Red 1 (F/O Sweeney) received a hit in the starboard wing aleron so that he returned to base with his flight, his aircraft was Cat AC.
Blue Flight went further north and ran into a nest of trains, they split into pairs and carried out separate attacks. Blue 1 (S/L Crosby) accounted for five locomotives. he came up to look around for more, Blue 3 - (F/O Laurence) having knocked out two already and to the north he saw a FW 190 and a Typhoon dog fighting and then the Typhoon spun into earth and burst into flames. He gave chase to the 190 and was closing in on it when bounced by 10 FW190's and ME109's. He called a break with the Huns already firing. Both he and his number two had about five on their tails. With such a disadvantage it was useless to fight it out so F/O Laurence dove for the deck. After a chase for ten miles or so, there was only one long nosed FW190 on his tail but he was extremely persistent, so F/O Laurence commenced some very tight steep turns on the deck hoping that the 190 couldn't stay with him. It kept right with him but suddenly flicked and crashed into the ground bursting into flames.
Just after this he was bounced by a ME109 he hadn't seen, but no trouble and out turned it with 20 degree flap and was about to shoot it down when it too rolled over completely and crashed into the ground blowing up. Blue 4 (W/O Church) did not return and it was presumed that he was shot down .
CLAIMS: 1 FW190 destroyed, 1 ME109 destroyed, 7 locomotives damaged, 4 goods trucks damaged.
MN791
And a diary log from the mission.... Anyone else agree that they had rockets and NO bombs???
MN791 Shot down south of Coesfeld by a FW-190 on the 29 Dec 1944. Blue 3 - (F/O Laurence) having knocked out two already and to the north he saw a FW 190 and a Typhoon (Blue 4, R87186 W/O 1 Church, S.A.) dog fighting and then the Typhoon spun into earth and burst into flames. WO Church managed to bail out and was captured, finishing the remainder of the war as a POW.
W/O S.A. Church
Armed Recce 09:55 10:55
Details of Sortie or Flight
Our battle area over AACHEN BEING CLOSED IN, THE SQUADRON took off with no bombs to return to their old hunting ground in COSEFELD, Germany area. On arriving there they found a large layer of mist over the southern sector of the area commencing about 10 miles south of COESFELD. Red Flight found a train just south of COESFELD and made an attack on it but were met by a hail of light and heavy flak, and Red 1 (F/O Sweeney) received a hit in the starboard wing aleron so that he returned to base with his flight, his aircraft was Cat AC.
Blue Flight went further north and ran into a nest of trains, they split into pairs and carried out separate attacks. Blue 1 (S/L Crosby) accounted for five locomotives. he came up to look around for more, Blue 3 - (F/O Laurence) having knocked out two already and to the north he saw a FW 190 and a Typhoon dog fighting and then the Typhoon spun into earth and burst into flames. He gave chase to the 190 and was closing in on it when bounced by 10 FW190's and ME109's. He called a break with the Huns already firing. Both he and his number two had about five on their tails. With such a disadvantage it was useless to fight it out so F/O Laurence dove for the deck. After a chase for ten miles or so, there was only one long nosed FW190 on his tail but he was extremely persistent, so F/O Laurence commenced some very tight steep turns on the deck hoping that the 190 couldn't stay with him. It kept right with him but suddenly flicked and crashed into the ground bursting into flames.
Just after this he was bounced by a ME109 he hadn't seen, but no trouble and out turned it with 20 degree flap and was about to shoot it down when it too rolled over completely and crashed into the ground blowing up. Blue 4 (W/O Church) did not return and it was presumed that he was shot down .
CLAIMS: 1 FW190 destroyed, 1 ME109 destroyed, 7 locomotives damaged, 4 goods trucks damaged.
Last edited:
- Thread starter
- #103
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
One of the things Im having issues with is the report that Philipp shot down a Spitfire before being shot down himself....
I cant find any info regarding Spits lost in the area... Could it be he was mistaken and it was the other lost plane from 168 Sq, F/O Plant???
I cant find any info regarding Spits lost in the area... Could it be he was mistaken and it was the other lost plane from 168 Sq, F/O Plant???
- Thread starter
- #104
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Another shot of a 168th Sq RAF Tiffy......
- Thread starter
- #105
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Found some wierd and differing information concerning this mission......
I trust Axel's interpetation of the days events in his Dora-9 book, but this info opens another door of possibilities....
Heres the site:
Italeri 1/48 Fw-190D-9
December 29 was "der schwartz Tag" for III/JG54. The orders called for a mission by successive staffeln against British fighter-bombers in the area of Osnabrueck, Muenster and Rheine, at a specified altitude of 6,000 feet. The mission was madness, considering the superiority of the RAF. Contrary to standard practice, Weiss as the mission commander was not allowed input in the planning; he could have refused these orders and tried to get them revised to allow for a Gruppe-strength patrol at 25,000 feet, which would have given them a chance. For unknown reasons, he accepted the mission as ordered.
Weiss led his stabschwarm and the twelve fighters of 11.JG54 from Varrelbusch at 1000, following the decimation of 9.JG54 twenty minutes earlier by Spitfires from 411 Squadron, which shot down 6 of the 12 German fighters. At 1045, Weiss' formation made contact with Typhoons of 439 Squadron, RCAF, and attacked. They were in turn hit by Tempests of 56 Squadron. Following the initial encounter, the Germans broke into schwaerme. The formation Weiss was leading was then hit by 56 Squadron Tempests and Spitfire XIVs of 41 Squadron. In the entire fight, the Tempests and Spitfires shot down a total of seven pilots from the Stab and 11.JG54, including Hauptmann Weiss. Overall, on December 29, III/JG54 lost fourteen pilots killed and seventeen aircraft, from a total establishment of 36. In the opinion of the group's survivors, the unit never fully recovered from the loss of the popular and well-respected Weiss, a Knight's Cross recipient with 121 victories at the time of his death.
I trust Axel's interpetation of the days events in his Dora-9 book, but this info opens another door of possibilities....
Heres the site:
Italeri 1/48 Fw-190D-9
December 29 was "der schwartz Tag" for III/JG54. The orders called for a mission by successive staffeln against British fighter-bombers in the area of Osnabrueck, Muenster and Rheine, at a specified altitude of 6,000 feet. The mission was madness, considering the superiority of the RAF. Contrary to standard practice, Weiss as the mission commander was not allowed input in the planning; he could have refused these orders and tried to get them revised to allow for a Gruppe-strength patrol at 25,000 feet, which would have given them a chance. For unknown reasons, he accepted the mission as ordered.
Weiss led his stabschwarm and the twelve fighters of 11.JG54 from Varrelbusch at 1000, following the decimation of 9.JG54 twenty minutes earlier by Spitfires from 411 Squadron, which shot down 6 of the 12 German fighters. At 1045, Weiss' formation made contact with Typhoons of 439 Squadron, RCAF, and attacked. They were in turn hit by Tempests of 56 Squadron. Following the initial encounter, the Germans broke into schwaerme. The formation Weiss was leading was then hit by 56 Squadron Tempests and Spitfire XIVs of 41 Squadron. In the entire fight, the Tempests and Spitfires shot down a total of seven pilots from the Stab and 11.JG54, including Hauptmann Weiss. Overall, on December 29, III/JG54 lost fourteen pilots killed and seventeen aircraft, from a total establishment of 36. In the opinion of the group's survivors, the unit never fully recovered from the loss of the popular and well-respected Weiss, a Knight's Cross recipient with 121 victories at the time of his death.
- Thread starter
- #106
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Profile and model of Weiss' Black 10....
Did all the Stab have yellow rudders Erich????
Did all the Stab have yellow rudders Erich????
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Regarding 439 Squadron armament fit; according to all the info I've seen, their Typhoons were equipped for bombs, not rockets. Photos bear this out. Even though that colour shot of the painting shows red codes, all photo evidence for the period shows 'Sky' codes. I've now got more info, including colour profiles and a colour 4-view for the camouflage pattern and colours, and I should have the lot to you by the weekend.
I can also now confirm that the Spitfires retained the yellow wing leading edge I.D. stripes, and that the 'Sky' fuselage bands were still in place.
The fuselage bands, and the remains of any 'D-Day' stripes, were removed following the order of January 3rd 1945, and at the same time the upper wing roundels started to change, although some squadrons didn't complete the changes until late January or early February.
So the Spit skin is OK as it stands, apart from needing a black spinner, the yellow stripes, and slightly larger code letters. The letters were 36 inches tall. This will all be clarified and noted in the bumpf I send.
I can also now confirm that the Spitfires retained the yellow wing leading edge I.D. stripes, and that the 'Sky' fuselage bands were still in place.
The fuselage bands, and the remains of any 'D-Day' stripes, were removed following the order of January 3rd 1945, and at the same time the upper wing roundels started to change, although some squadrons didn't complete the changes until late January or early February.
So the Spit skin is OK as it stands, apart from needing a black spinner, the yellow stripes, and slightly larger code letters. The letters were 36 inches tall. This will all be clarified and noted in the bumpf I send.
- Thread starter
- #108
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Great info Terry, thanks....
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Wow...ok, so this is interesting...Tempests in the area?
I wonder what they were using for a source?
ontos
Tech Sergeant
What was the interior primer color on the Mk. IX, and the actual color of the landing flaps, and wheel wells.
- Thread starter
- #112
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Terry, part of one of the combat reports that Mike Williams posted up says that a few of the Typhoon pilots from 168th Sq shot off their rockets to engage the Germans when they got bounced.... Didnt say anything about jettisoning bombs....
Then this report where they said they took off without bombs and did great damage in ground attack... Gotta be rocket work... Ur thoughts???
Great pic Karl, definatly what we needed....
Dave, dont know how much validity I put in that "alternate" version, no idea who came up with it, but the true facts dont support it....
As well as figuring out what the planes looked like guys, I also need to keep figuring out how the battle transpired.... I really want to show Philipp and Rey getting their kills and the sunsequent shootdown of Philipp....
As it stands now, Im going to change the facts and make it a Typhoon from 168th Sq flown by F/O Plant that Philipp shoots down, as there seems to be no evidence that there were Spitfires in the Nordhorn area at 1100, nor any losses confirmed.... Therefore, his shootdown will also be by a Tiffy, not sure who gets the kill yet, still have to research British victory claims...
Any help on that front???
Then this report where they said they took off without bombs and did great damage in ground attack... Gotta be rocket work... Ur thoughts???
Great pic Karl, definatly what we needed....
Dave, dont know how much validity I put in that "alternate" version, no idea who came up with it, but the true facts dont support it....
As well as figuring out what the planes looked like guys, I also need to keep figuring out how the battle transpired.... I really want to show Philipp and Rey getting their kills and the sunsequent shootdown of Philipp....
As it stands now, Im going to change the facts and make it a Typhoon from 168th Sq flown by F/O Plant that Philipp shoots down, as there seems to be no evidence that there were Spitfires in the Nordhorn area at 1100, nor any losses confirmed.... Therefore, his shootdown will also be by a Tiffy, not sure who gets the kill yet, still have to research British victory claims...
Any help on that front???
- Thread starter
- #114
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Frickin awesome Karl, u found what I spent 1.5 hours lookin for...
Excellent....
Excellent....
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Kewl info, Karl!
Is it possible that there were '109s operating in the area? There is a pretty distinct difference between the Dora and a '109
Is it possible that there were '109s operating in the area? There is a pretty distinct difference between the Dora and a '109
no probs mate, its from 2nd TAF vol 2 it has a couple of pages about 29 dec i'll try and copy the text into here.
Dave from the what i've read in a couple of books it is assumed that having not seen Dora's before the pilots thought that the long noses were 109's
Dave from the what i've read in a couple of books it is assumed that having not seen Dora's before the pilots thought that the long noses were 109's
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I suppose it is entirely possible! There were a number of cases where the P-47 and the Fw190A were mistaken for each other...
I saw Weiss' photo in the other thread, thanks for posting that, I think we can make that work for the pilot's skin
Good post on the action's write-up, too!
Thanks for your help!
I saw Weiss' photo in the other thread, thanks for posting that, I think we can make that work for the pilot's skin
Good post on the action's write-up, too!
Thanks for your help!
found another book with all the Typhoon serial no's and what happened to them, i'll go through them and try and find out which Tiffies were lost on that day, might take a few days though
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