Is Democracy Over-rated?

[michaelmaltby]

Come and gone .. those are ks not miles

 

[pbfoot]

Democratic vehicles in my life, last weekend .... black (94) has 460, 000. Red (97) 283,000.

MM

nice Fiats

 

[Readie]

View attachment 184734

Come and gone .. those are ks not miles[/QUOT

Oh, kilometers? Ummm....
We have the nonsense of buying petrol in litres and calculating fuel used in miles per gallon.
Only we could endure this....

The kids are ok with metric but, I have little perception of distance, width, height weight in anything other than imperial.

John

 

[michaelmaltby]

"... nice Fiats".

Best value Fiat got in the purchase ....

MM

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Democratic vehicles in my life, last weekend .... black (94) has 460, 000. Red (97) 283,000.

MM

Nice Grand Cherokee. I had a 95 Grand Cherokee Limited with the 5.2 V8. It had 200,000 on it before I finally got my new one. Loved that car.

nice Fiats

Naw those were made before Fiat bought Chrysler. Fortunately Fiat has already stated they are going to leave Jeep alone.

 

[michaelmaltby]

The black is one of the few made with manual transmission ... and of course the red one has manual.

MM

 

[parsifal]

Morris Marina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


ANY country that has this piece of junk inflicted on it and not go into civil war must be democratically stable.

The ultimate test of democracy is the humble Morris Marina.

I rest my case gentlemen.

John

That is about the best way to put this that I have seen.

excelllently put john

 

[parsifal]

Morris Marina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


ANY country that has this piece of junk inflicted on it and not go into civil war must be democratically stable.

The ultimate test of democracy is the humble Morris Marina.

I rest my case gentlemen.

John

You cannot forget that memorable piece of british engineering, the Leyland P-76.

My engineer brother reckons that the trouble with Brit cars was not that they couldn't build an oil seal to keep out trouble (though thats my opinion), rather, that they did not incorporate planned obsolesence like the Japanese do. Eveything was designed to be fixed, or replaced, but everything wore out at a different rate.....result.....a vehicle that would leak oil allover your driveway AND continually break down because stuff broke at a different rates to each other....one day you had a broken uni joint, the next day an oil seal to the gearbox is gone, but just the week before it was fine......very frustrating... I remember doing three separate slave cylinders in a month, even though ecah time the mechanic checked all of them and said just one needed replacing......

(signed)

Proud (former) owner of an Austin Healey Sprite MkIII.....1986-99. and acquirer of the last known new stroker crank for the 1275cc engine in Australia.

 

[pbfoot]

Cars in the UK were never built for North America they were the wrong car for the wrong place

 

[buffnut453]

Just like American cars don't work in the UK - parking spaces are too small for them, roads are too twisty for suspensions optimized for long distance comfort, and they consume too much petrol compared to smaller cars typically found on UK roads.

 

[pbfoot]

Just like American cars don't work in the UK - parking spaces are too small for them, roads are too twisty for suspensions optimized for long distance comfort, and they consume too much petrol compared to smaller cars typically found on UK roads.

The cars were not of any use in winter. No heat no defrost and they just seem to rot away at accelerated speeds with salted roads they were also very labour intensive. Myself I've for the most part always driven sub compacts since 68 after my 66 Mustang (Piece of Crap) accidentily fell in the river so its not at all the size that matters but reliability

 

[Matt308]

Myself I've for the most part always driven sub compacts since 68 after my 66 Mustang (Piece of Crap) accidentily fell in the river so its not at all the size that matters but reliability

Alright... I'll bite. How does a perfectly good car "fall in the river"?

 

[pbfoot]

Alright... I'll bite. How does a perfectly good car "fall in the river"?

Was young , there was a party down by the river the parking brake didn't take and it rolled over a 30ft cliff into a 100' of water with a 15mph current , now this left me with payments and no car . The statute of limitations is long gone now and the thief nor car was ever recovered.

 

[Vic Balshaw]

Morris Marina - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


ANY country that has this piece of junk inflicted on it and not go into civil war must be democratically stable.

The ultimate test of democracy is the humble Morris Marina.

I rest my case gentlemen.

John

I had two of these John, first was a coupe which served it purpose the second an estate which developed spider web paintwork as well as a number of mechanical problems, the final straw was the gearstick coming away in my hand one afternoon on the way home from work.

 

[Readie]

so its not at all the size that matters but reliability

Agreed Neil, According to JD Power and the British 'Which Car' surveys if you want a reliable motor you have to buy Japanese.
Toyota rules the roost in the Aussie outback where reliability gets serious.
Jeep and Land Rover have a very poor reputation in Europe. I wonder if the Jeep's made in the States are better than the exported ones?
John

 

[Readie]

I had two of these John, first was a coupe which served it purpose the second an estate which developed spider web paintwork as well as a number of mechanical problems, the final straw was the gearstick coming away in my hand on afternoon on the way home from work.

I had a 1.8 Super Saloon mk1 and a 1.3 Super Saloon mk2 as well Vic. The pluses were easy and cheap to repair, fairly reliable if you kept up with the servicing and liberally used WD40. The minuses were constant rust, horrendous understeer, axle tramp and things that came off in your hand. My front seat back snapped off...made for an interesting drive.

John

 

[Readie]

You cannot forget that memorable piece of british engineering, the Leyland P-76.

My engineer brother reckons that the trouble with Brit cars was not that they couldn't build an oil seal to keep out trouble (though thats my opinion), rather, that they did not incorporate planned obsolesence like the Japanese do. Eveything was designed to be fixed, or replaced, but everything wore out at a different rate.....result.....a vehicle that would leak oil allover your driveway AND continually break down because stuff broke at a different rates to each other....one day you had a broken uni joint, the next day an oil seal to the gearbox is gone, but just the week before it was fine......very frustrating... I remember doing three separate slave cylinders in a month, even though ecah time the mechanic checked all of them and said just one needed replacing......

(signed)

Proud (former) owner of an Austin Healey Sprite MkIII.....1986-99. and acquirer of the last known new stroker crank for the 1275cc engine in Australia.

The Marina was British Leyland trying to do a Ford number, ie sell very basic cars instead of the technically clever cars like the 1100/1300, Mini, Maxi etc that they produced historically.

BL failed where Ford succeed and became a laughing stock.

Ah, oil leaks. My project cars are always A series as I like the character of the unit. But, oil tight? I have never succeed. The usual culprit is the gear rod seal at the bottom of the gearbox.

The stroker crank was a rare find !

John

 

[michaelmaltby]

Cars are a huge symbol of "Democracy" ..... Henry knew that if his workers couldn't afford his cars there was no future for the industry. Once that principle was in-play America began to re-invent itself around the car and it became a necessity (due to distance and scale)

In the UK after WW1 there was a huge pent-up demand for a "new" system which the debt and the depression pretty much dampened. But after WW2 the first act of the British public was to throw out the wartime government and its leader and go Labour ..... with all the hopes that come/came with that. The British sentiment was pretty much the sentiment all across Western Europe ... understandably hoping for more peaceful, more equitable, more prosperous times. Cars for the masses were an important element in that consumer wet-dream. But only the Germans, IMHO, (Peugeot and Citroen, maybe, ) really knew how to build reliable, affordable cars for the market. Driving your Ford Prefect, Fiat or Renault on the weekend with the Missus .. and polishing it lovingly each night and tweeking the tappets isn't that same as routinely driving from Toronto to Florida (none stop) or blasting from Chamonix to Barcelona on the autoroutes (my niece in a Peugot diesel).

"... Jeep and Land Rover have a very poor reputation in Europe. I wonder if the Jeep's made in the States are better than the exported"

Don't think so ... but I had a colleague - a Brit - who worked in Brussels and used to drive flat-out to Paris twice a week in a 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee ( 4.0 L, 200 hp push rod engine with hydraulic lifters). Needless to say the Jeep didn't like being driven at high revs like that constantly .... it liked to turn 2000 rpm at 110. and will do that forever.

Proud Jeep Lover

MM

 

[Readie]

Mobility and independence are treasures as you rightly say Michael.
The pre-war designs that were offered in the 1950's scarred a generation.It took a quantum leap to get Joe Average mobile in the UK. The Minor, Anglia Mini played that role. Tinkering on a Sunday afternoon ? Its a tradition that has been lost with fuel injection and ECU's.
I think your perception of French cars is er....adventurous. They are either bizarre or bread and butter basic fare. But, the French buy them and I suppose that says something ( does it?). I wish that the British were as loyal to our own cars as the French are to theirs. Up to about 1970 buying anything other than a British motor was seen as either eccentric ( French) or deeply unpatriotic ( German) or mad ( Dutch DAF). USA cars were just too flash vulgar for us.
My experiences with Renault Peugeot have varied from a joke to fun. 'Fun' being constant problems but, good when it worked. A 205 CTi in my case. 'Joke' was a 4TL.
The German reliability record is not as good as you may think with expensive unexpected problems occurring. Bit like Honda's turbo and cam chain woes. But,the build quality is good there is an undeniable feel good factor in VW, Audi Mercedes.
Chrysler cars are seen as a left field choice here and dealers are few and far between. I wanted to get a Jeep Patriot last year but, the acres of ill fitting trim put me off. Quite an imposing vehicle but, I'd be better off with a Toyota Surf.
I know people love their Cherokees and the LPG conversion is popular here. Hammering a big 4WD as you describe is not what they were designed for.
The Japanese have seen off our motorbike industry and done a good job with our car industry too. Most people just want a car that works 24/7. Enter the bland Toyota Corolla.

But, people 'vote' with their wallet as indeed we vote in the election.

So, is the Corolla the ultimate car of democracy?

John

 

[parsifal]

The Marina was British Leyland trying to do a Ford number, ie sell very basic cars instead of the technically clever cars like the 1100/1300, Mini, Maxi etc that they produced historically.

BL failed where Ford succeed and became a laughing stock.

Ah, oil leaks. My project cars are always A series as I like the character of the unit. But, oil tight? I have never succeed. The usual culprit is the gear rod seal at the bottom of the gearbox.

The stroker crank was a rare find !

John

For me the epitomy of british motoring were its sports cars. I always loved the Sprites, but a good Jaguar, or Aston Martin, Morgan or Lotus......you cant beat them. not that they were the fastest, or the best, just had a certain class about them.

My Sprite was a bucket of bits when I got it. An exracing machine. was mildly worked, but I reconditioned and balanced the engine. 1275cc bored out to about 1370 I think, huge over sized valves (like the old Coopers), double valve springs. 40mm SU carbs, 4 of them, flat pistons, and the stroker crank, a slightly worked camshaft, 4 bolt main bearings to hold the camshaft in place (why on earth did the brits only have 3 main bearings with just two studs per bearing. Straightened exhaust with extractors. I put different gear ratios in to the gearbox, they dsaid I should have put 5 speed gearbox in but I didnt. Reco power brakes system, sway bars front and back, slip diff. A fully reconditioned body and re- upholstered. She pured like a kitten (straight through twin exhaust 9fitted after the photosd). Could get to 0-60 in about 8 seconds from memory. Top speed was about 108mph, could sustain about 95). Would rev out to about 8500 rpm with very little valve bounce.


My best trip was from Canberra to Sydney (roughly a four hour trip, although we did it in two this night). Just outside of Canberra, nosed up against an Alpha Spyder. Thought this will be easy......took off from the light, and left him in my wake. In straight line speed , hillclimbing, and accelaration I had it all over this guy, but he could beat me in the corners....those things are on rails i tell you.

We battled it out for two hours , neither one could get the advantage....sometimes it was me, sometmes him. As we entered SAydney, he was slightly in front, but he slowed down, and we entered the city in line abreast. It was the best street episode I ever was stupid enough to get involved in.

If cars are a reflection of a nations democracy, I reckon this was the symbol of British freedom......completely impractical, a real pain in the a**** to maintain, but a joy to ride in


Now i drive a safe, practical Subaru........