Is the Spitfire Really Superior to the FW-190 ... continued

[Udet]

Mr. Hop:

That was quite an interesting attempt to mingle and play with the several versions of the Spitfire, flawed though. But I will not debate further on that particular matter.

The V version of the Spitfire got dramatically surpassed by the Butcher Bird. It appears you have sound doubts on the matter even when you see the outcome of two famous battles that have been cited here: Dieppe and Channel Dash; on both occasions the RAF deployed a very significant effort and received brutal treatment at the hands of the Fw190s and Bf 109s. The V happened to be one of the main characters of such battles.


Also your argument trying to justify the performance of the RAF over France in 1941-1942 does not hold water.

The Spitfires were going nowhere in gaining anything over the Luftwaffe both over the Channel and France in 41/42 and first half of 1943.

So the Luftwaffe pilots decided when to engage the Spitfires over France after the BoB? That is part of the logic of war, to decide when to hit and when to wait.

Whatever...whenever they "decided" to engage them, the Spitfires went down in juicy numbers.

The arrival of the USAAF to England and its gradual assembly, jugs and jugs, gave the RAF a fresh breeze. Now the Luftwaffe would eventually find itself dramatically outnumbered as time passed.

 

[lesofprimus]

Correct me if Im wrong, but did this guy just state that the Bf-109 was LESS susceptable to ground fire than the Fw-190???

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

yes, he said he'd rather take a -109 than a -190 for a ground attack mission..........

 

[lesofprimus]

Thats just plain silly...

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

but remeber, it is our job to educate him, not call him stupid...........

 

[cheddar cheese]

Fw-190F-8....IDEAL....

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i'd rather be in a jug.........

 

[plan_D]

Udet, go get a clue.

No one stated the Spitfire V was superior or even an equal to the Fw-190. It was able to handle itself up against Bf-109F.

My argument does hold water, you're just dumb.

The Luftwaffe only engaged the RAF over France when it was in favourable terms for them to engage. The RAF didn't have the luxury during the Battle of Britain. Use a bit of grey matter.

And anyone who calls the Spitfire overrated are just stupid as well and like to be controversial, when they're just a tit. It's like calling the Mustang overrated - and if you think it was overrated go into the Polls section and the P-51 Vs P-47 thread.

 

[Udet]

Mr. Plan_D:

Clues? I have got plenty of them. It should be you wondering if you ve got any.

When necessary, yes, I am totally controversial.

It is more about giving a response to the question giving life to this thread.

I have stated the answer such a question deserves: NO.


To put an even grimmer horizon before your sight, this time it is not a matter of preference or personal taste. With the sole exception of the Spitfire XIV, that could have some parity with the Butcher Bird, no Spitfire ever could tangle with the A series of the Fw 190; the scenario for the Spitfires gets even worse during the second half of 1944 when facing the "long nose" D version and the final model in the evolution of the Focke Wulf: the Ta 152.

Fortunately for the Spitfire pilots, by the time the D version and the Ta 152 entered service the European skies were also loaded with Jugs and Mustangs, very favorable circumstances and helpful friends to have fighting in your side.


Be very sure on this: the Bf-109 E-3 who saw action over England during 1940 performed many many times better against the MkI Spitfires and Hurricanes, than any version of the Spitfire ever came close to achieve fighting the Fw190 during 1941, 1942 and the first half of 1943 -before the 8th assembled in full in England-.

Your inconsistent and void remarks are amusing.

 

[lesofprimus]

Your inconsistent and void remarks are amusing.

Which is why we here like him so very much.........

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yeah I was just poking some fun.

Can you tell me, were the Spit's wing design to give high altitude characteristics? Was it as I suspect, designed to answer the public phobia built in the 1930's about bomber air power?

Elliptical wings are supposed to reduce induced drag and provide early stall warning. During WW2, they were found expensive and time consuming to build. High altitude performance? I think that might of been part of the equasion.

 

[plan_D]

Again, Udet has kindly shown us the lack of knowledge he currently holds in that shallow well of his.

No Spitfire but the Spitfire XIV could tangle with the Fw-190. A joke, surely? I feel some strange feeling, it's kind of like I am repeating myself to someone who knows nothing and will not accept anything but his own views on the matter.

Whatever your eyes see on your screen or book when you read [that is assuming you do read], it probably will be the complete opposite. For the Fw-190 did overcome the Spitfire V with ease, no debate there and I don't believe there ever was. Except maybe in your mind, the creation of confrontation to inflate your swelling ego. Why it swells, I do not know. A legend in your own mind, I suppose.

The Spitfire did achieve an equal standing with the Fw-190A series with the Spitfire VIII, IX and XVI. All of which are basically the same model of Spitfire - the XVI being a U.S built Packard-Merlin Mk. IX. I do much prefer discussing this with Soren because even with the insults and slanging it does degrade into sometimes, his points do hold water and he does produce facts to back up his statements. You on the other hand have a personal vendetta against the Allied armies of World War 2, it seems these days to be more against the United Kingdom but we can't stay the same forever.

As quite clearly mentioned by I believe everyone on this forum involved in this discussion, aside from you, the Spitfire XIV was a superior dogfighter to the Fw-190A, of any variant. That also brings into account the Spitfire XII, which at low altitude was also superior to the Fw-190A. The Spitfire XII being solely created to stop the Fw-190 low-level nuisance raids.

The Spitfire XIV and Fw-190D were equal partners in a dogfight, always coming to the pilot skill. It has been agreed by everyone but you, again.

And then the Ta-152, of course the most magnificent piston-engined fighter ever to be created. One with hardly an experience in combat but is marvelled by all as unbeatable in the hands of a capable pilot. Certainly, it was a remarkable aircraft but it was too little, too late and it's combat experience against a Spitfire? None. It never met one. That said, it would have been interesting to see it come into contact with the Spitfire 21.

I wish I could say the waste that you leave behind on these forums was amusing but it really isn't. It's more like a dose of VD - and with all those lovely women you date, you'll have had that experience. Sure, they don't chew with their mouth open but we can all do that, Udet. They just hide their VD behind a civilised mask.

Enjoy.

 

[alejandro_]

plan_D

Interesting message, could you point me to the old thread where you discussed this in more detail? I am interested in the maneouvrability of the Spitfire at high speeds, I have read it wasn't as good as the Fw-190.

Regards.

 

[vanir]

I stand corrected. I had it the wrong way around (I just looked it up). It seems the air cooled radial was less susceptable to ground fire than a liquid cooled inline, my mistake (see what weekend alchohol will do to you?).

Also found this pearler in my travels:

Even when escorts arrived, the FW-190 was never a pushover for any Allied pilots, anyplace, anywhere. When an overenthusiastic American manufacturer printed an advertisement that displayed an FW-190 to mock it with the caption: "Who's Afraid Of The Big Bad Wulf?" -- they got a copy of the ad sent back to them in the mail along with a letter signed by everyone in a bomber unit that said: "We are."

 

[plan_D]

I don't blame them for being scared of the Fw-190. I don't think any bomber crew wanted to be caught on the wrong side of a Fw-190A-8/R8!

The Fw-190 pilots weren't too happy about going up against the escorting P-51s either.

And I think everyone with a bit of sense can agree that if a Fw-190 met a Spitfire in 1944-1945 neither the Spitfire or Fw-190 pilot would think it was going to be an easy kill.

 

[vanir]

Resounding agreement there plan_D.

Don't mind my teething troubles btw, I'm already learning a lot from this site.

 

[Jabberwocky]

The problem with comparing the Spitfire and the 190 as fighters is the timeframe and evolutionary changes that each went through in the 1941 to 1945 period. The Spitfire Vb alone went through 1300 modifications in its service life, making absolute comparisons tough.

Right off the bat after its 1941 appearance you would have to say that the 190A was undoubtly the superior fighter. Look at the advantages of a Fw-190A2 (the first real production version, 400 built) compared to a classically equipped Spitfire Vb (+12lbs boost Merlin 45);

1) Significantly faster at all altitudes up to about 7500 meters (25, 000 feet). The A4 topped out at about 390 mph at 6000m, the Spitfire Vb at 375mph at 7000m. There was a general 20-30 mph advantage to the 190, more so at lower altitudes.

2) Higher rate of roll at all speeds and all altitudes.

3) Significantly better acceleration, particularly at low altitude.

4) Significantly better dive, both in absolute speed and dive handling. The 190 could simply run away from the Spitfire in a dive if the pilot found himself in trouble. At 500 mph true the control were described as "although slightly heavier, are still remarkably light"

5) Better sighting view. The 190 had about half a ring better deflection sighting than a Spitfire V.

6) Better search view. The 190A had what the ADFU described as "the best yet seen by this unit". There were very few canopy obstructions to the side or rear due to the bubble type canopy.

7) Superior climb. The Fw-190 climbs at a higher m/sec and higher speed than the Spitfire Vb until very high altitude (27,000 feet or higher)

8) Superior armament. The 190A2 has 2x MG FF, 2x Mg151.20 and 2x MG 17. Firing Mingenschloss shells (about 2 in 5 in most ammo load-outs) the MGFF and MG 151/20 come out only very slightly less destructive than the Hispano. The 190A2 had more cannon ammunition per gun than the Spitfire Vb (60rpg for the Hispano in a B type wing)

9) Trim setting. The 190 was set very well for trim and cruise settings, reducing the pilots workload considerably.

10) Kommergranate or automatic engine controls. This allowed novice pilots to get accustomed to the type very quickly.

So the 190 was faster in level ad dive speeds, a superior climber, had heavier armament and light control at high speeds than a Spitfire Vb. Sounds scary, and for a Spitfire pilot in early/mid 1942 it was. His only major advantage was a better sustained climb at altitude and a much tighter turning circle and better turn times. The 190 had a lot of problems with the BMW-801 as well. There was insufficient cockpit cooling, the engine ran quite roughly and was prone to catching fire in mid-air. FW-190s were banned from making long overwater flights for quite a while.

The British tests of the Farber 190A3 rated it as superior fighter to the Spitfire Vb in almost every respect, with the exception of horizontal turn.

Things, however, tend to have a habit of changing. By June 1942 the two stage Merlin 61 was put into the redesigned and reinforced Spitfire Vc airframe, resulting in the Spitfire IX. The 190 got better as well though, with the beginning of serial production of the 190A3 in mid 1942, getting an up-rated (1,700 hp) BMW-801-D2 which improved speeds at all levels by about 5-10 mph and was MUCH more reliable.

The Spitfiire IX did much to redress the balance in favour of the Spitfire. The primary boost was in level and dive speed. The Vc airframe was much tougher than the old Vb, it could dive to higher speeds and the Merlin 61 accelerated in a dive faster. Alieron and elevator mass balances were adjusted improving control harmonisation and rate of role (if only minorly). Cannon ammunition went from 60 prg to 120 rpg. The oil cooler was redesigned. All of a sudden the Spitfire was neck and neck with the 190 when it came to combat.

Going down my list of advantages for the 190A2 we now see a large swing.

1) The 190 only faster below 1000m/ 3,000 feet and between 5000- 6500m/ 18,000- 22,000 feet. At all other heights they are either even or the Spitfire has the advantage. Above 7000m/ 23,000 feet the Spitfire has a noticeable advantage, up to 20mph over 8000m.

2) The 190 ALWAYS rolled faster than the Spitfire, even the clipped wing birds. However, the Spitfire did continually and incrementally improve it roll rate during the war.

3) The 190 posses superior acceleration below 23,000 feet. Above this height the Spitfire has a very slim margin, which increases with altitude.

4) The 190 is still a better diver. The Spitfire IX is not out-dived as badly as the Vb though.

5) The Spitfire offered no improvement to the sighting view of the type.

6) The Spitfire IX improved the all around visibility of the Spitfire family (less cockpit framing) but couldn't compete with the 190s bubble canopy.

7) The Spitfire IX climbs better than the 190. The gap is marginal below 20,000 feet but increases rapidly after this point.

8)The Spitfire IX now had double the cannon ammunition but the Fw190A3 also increased its load-out, so I would still go with the FW here.

9) As above

10) The Spitfire IX did lessen the pilots workload but as I'm not a pilot I can't really comment as to how much.

So, in mid-1942 the absolute superiority of the 190A is replaced by a neck and neck horse race with the Spitfire IX. The 190A received a boost when Mw-50 is introduced in late 1942, with the 190A4 and slightly lengthened 190A5. Still, its now apparent the there are something that the Spitfire can do better (turn, climb, speed at medium and high alts) and there are things that the 190 does better (dive, roll, shoot [sight and guns] and high speed control).

All in all the end of 1942 the RAF didn't feel like it was prey for the 190. I would hardly say that a Merlin 61 engined +16lbs boosted Spitfire is better than a 190 but it is certainly a more even match.

Sorry for the essay though, it's my first post here. Just wanted to bring some facts to the discussion and leave a god first impression.

 

[Nonskimmer]

Nothing wrong with being thorough. Welcome aboard.

But prepare to be swarmed by Spitfire fans.

 

[lesofprimus]

Good post and welcome... If u hang around, ull see that this is a very heated and often opinionated discussion... Your points are just about all correct, but there will be others who will contest ur points...

There are more than a couple Aussies, or as I like to say, Vickys, here.... I think ull get along just fine....

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Great Post and welcome!