Israeli forces storm the ships; number of killed people

[BombTaxi]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt308
While I recognize that is maritime law, reality is that no sane nation that I know of respects that 20mi line of demarcation. Even the US flouts 200mi. Personally, with an flotilla of activists publically stating that they are going to break the blockade with a ship loaded with who knows what approaching my 20mi zone of exclusion and not cooperating with me, **** em.



So the Palestinians can seize an American-flagged ship lying, say, 200mi off their coast, on suspicion that the ship is carrying weapons that may be delivered to Israel for use against Palestine? And if they kill ten American nationals in the process, so be it, because anyone can attack anyone's ships in international waters if those ships might be carrying weapons, and maritime law is irrelevant?

No. Didn't think so. That would be terrorism. And no, I'm not making a political point. The point I am making is this:

How can we expect any two-bit tinpot dictatorship to follow international law and behave themselves when Israel, for example, can do what the hell it likes with no consequences? International law is law, and simply cannot be suspended as and when it suits the Israelis (or anyone else). Rule of law is fundamental to successful 'civilised' nation-states, and if it is suspended whenever it seems expedient to do so, Israel and their allies will lose even more credibility in the eyes of the Muslim world, making the chance of a peaceful resolution ever more remote. I am starting to think that that is exactly what Israel and certain of her allies want.

As an aside, I see Fox commentators are already castigating Obama for failing to support Israel and condone their behaviour. He hasn't voiced an opinion as yet about the maiming of an American woman by IDF forces (nor has anyone here commented on this fact) - but should he also condone this act, as it was done on the pretext of quelling a riot by Palestinians, and is therefore a part of their fight against Palestine?

Finally, two very different articles on the situation from The Guardian - left-leaning British daily, for those aren't familiar with it. One supports, and one opposes the Israeli actions:

Israel had no choice over Gaza flotilla | Seth Freedman | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

The Gaza flotilla attack shows how far Israel has declined | David Grossman | Comment is free | The Guardian


EDIT: Erich, nearly forgot to mention,if there are weapons aboard those ships, I hope the idiots responsible are tried and punished - in accordance with the law. I cannot and do not condone any kind of terrorism, but I equally cannot condone any state which flaunts international law as and when it is expedient to do so (and that most certainly includes my own).

 

[BombTaxi]

I think technically speaking it's considered Israeli territory.

I will stand corrected, just looked that up and Israel retains authority over the airspace, territorial waters and some land borders of the Gaza Strip.

 

[Erich]

Bomb hate to say it but it is not up to you or I or anyone on this fine forum boards. Israel will do what it needs to do to survive, whether we think combating in international waters is justified or not. to hell with the UN.

one must live amongst both peoples to have a much more clear view point as an outsider one cannot without firsthand experience. this is just the way it is

 

[GrauGeist]

I wouldn't say that the reaction by the IDF was "unprovoked"...Israel has been provoked for years...

This is just another feeding frenzy by the media and those people aboard the last of the "relief" ships should be glad it was the Israelis and not the Russians they picked a fight with...

As far as "Illegal Blockades" go, the United States acted illegally in blockading Cuba during the missile crisis, if I'm reading all this right...

I'd like to see any major nation in the world act with the same restraint that Israel has done over the years, coming under attack as they have - i.e.: mortar, rocket, IUD and Suicide Bombers, etc.

Just my 2 cents worth (adjusted for inflation)

 

[mikewint]

FBJ, thank you, i knew i remembered something, caused quite a stir in vietnam, especially Johnson's attitude, sweep it under the rug, what's another 34 dead americans.
Bombtaxi, Palestine seizing an american ship in international waters, terrorism? check out the USS Liberity in 1967. and we were their allies
The total mess in the mid-East, say thank you Winston Churchill for your willy-nilly partitioning of an entire region ignoring tribal, ethnic, and historical realities.
international law is a joke without enforcement. how many "laws" would you obey if you knew that there would be no enforcement or consequences.
Don't get me wrong, i don't blame Israel for being a paranoid state, you're not paranoid if they really are out to get you

 

[Emac44]

My opinion is. Yes it was a set up by the Pro Palistianine Groups. That as soon as Israeli Commandos landed they were attacked. I can visualise that Israel will do whats within its power to seize shipments suspect of being used as a cover to import weapons into Gaza. I agree that even the Eygptian Israeli Blockade even on land has failures stopping the flow of weapons into Gaza via the Tunnels. But then again how much relevence of checking shipment smuggled into Gaza via Eygpt is taken seriously by Eygptian Authorities on the Border. MY opinion only. But seemingly when it comes to Israel. The worlds only whipping boy Nation. That no matter what Israel does or doesn't do it will always be regarded by some as the UN's Rogue Nation. Even to the fact that when Israel has had peace treaties with Militants like Hezbollah and Hamas that either group has breached those treaties within days of the ink drying per say and attacked Israeli Territory repeatley. When Israel retaliates they are condemned unmercifuly, not by just the media but by world wide condemnation Via the UN and UN Security Council. Kind of reminds me prior to the hostilities in the 1960s that Syrian Artillery placed on the Golan Heights fired upon Israeli Territory and Civilan targets quiet often. Israel applied to the UN for the Syrians to withdraw their Artillery and the UN ignored or shelved the reports. Leaving the Israelis little option but to destroy the artilley of the Syrians and again of course Israel was condemned for being an instigator of overt hostilities.

I can agree that Israel has to abide by InterNational Maritine Laws. But in saying that so does the So Called Gaza Relief Convoy. Which had after all full intention of entering Israeli Territorial waters in breach of the Israeli exclsuion zone. In my opinion Gaza itself is still part of Israeli Territory. The reality being that Israel has placed embargos on its own Territorial Areas that include Gaza. In effect blockading its own Territory and wharves and inspecting any shipments in case of weapons being smuggled into the area to be later used against Israeli Civilians and Territory.

Has Israel as a Nation and a Country the right to defend itself. My answer is Yes they do. Whether we agree or disagree on how Israel goes about defending itself. By our so called modern political standards Israel has been a Nation since 7th December 1947 when the UN proclaimed Israeli Nationhood. But we tend to forget that in 1270 BC that Israel was already a Nation Historicaly speaking with King David Establishing the Nation of Israel in Jerusalem. The question of the Palistinians only coming about in 1967, 20 years after the Israel in the modern era was granted Nationhood by the UN.

Am I interested in Israel in its action offending Islamic Countries or those same countries demonstrating against the actions what Israel has done since Monday? No. As a whole these same Islamic Nations own populations cheered and danced in the streets when 9/11 occured in 2001. Given to the fact that these same Rent-a-Mob demonstrators would be cheering and dancing today if these so called relief ships had indeed reached Gaza and off loaded suspect goods into Gaza.

I know this is going off point. But I noticed one contribution was disavowing Churchill and the borders of modern Middle Eastern Countries as they are today. And I will address that. The claim was made that the British had no regard as to the territorial areas language or cultural unification as to where the borders were established. Seeing that yes the British certainly did make mistakes in drawing up those borders geographically speaking. The areas in question were under different Tribal influences. But given that also these Tribal influenced areas were pretty much fluid as it was. Bordering areas may have been signified as a grove of Olive Trees or an a Well used by strictly one Tribe but not anotherand inter Tribal disputes arose sporadically on Territory Boundaries. The British tried to divide the disputed Territories equally as best they could. Of course this failed and was bound to fail given the mentality of the local population which hasn't really changed since the 1940s and 1950s. The First Gulf War is pretty much evidence into that. As Kuwait was regarded by the Iraqis as their Province that had been denied them by Inter National Treaties etc. In retrospect not much difference between the Border disputes between Indai and Pakistan in the Kashmere Provinces ( and East Pakistan now known as Bangladesh). I suppose given 20/20 hindsight. It is easy to say Mistakes were made. Yes they were but given the time frame and the circumstances they were originally made at the time. That even Churchill or the British Government at the time was trying to equalise the playfield as best they could and made mistakes in that process. By this of course not every one concerned was going to be happy with the Lot they were parcelled out with. But blaming in concept Churchill for all this alone is a bit much. That when these Borders in dispute were drawn up at times he wasn't the British Prime Minister after 1945 and I would question just how much influence he had at decission time overall. In retrospect I suppose much like the current situation of the Nation of Israel since 1947,

Even to the extend of Bedioun Arab mindset. When Damacus fell to the Allies during World War 1. Arab/Bedoiun Tribes bickered and argued who controlled what and where in Damascus. Arguing over such things as the Electircity Supply Water and even the Fire Brigade and Essentialy Services. This mindset had not really changed when the British drew up the borders in the Middle East in my opinion. And I don't think it will ever change even today.

So we as so called Civlized Nations can now sit back and condemn Israel for what occured on Monday this week. In my opinion is a bit hypocritical of us to do so. Was Israel right in what occured? I would have to side with israel in this and say Yes. Israel by definition has a right to defend itself. Whether we like it or not. This is my opinion only and as I see it

 

[timshatz]

That was a long post.

 

[Snautzer01]

If the Israelis cant board a ship filled with civilian hooligans without killing, they are in very bad shape. Commandos against radical hippies shouldn't even be news.

So either they wanted to make a point or they should start retraining their armed forces asap.

 

[evangilder]

The boarding of the ship to inspect the cargo was something the Israelis did with a good amount of restraint, until the thugs on the boat decided to start attacking the commandos. Now everyone is analyzing the crap out of the video. They should have just sunk the ship.

 

[Erich]

looks like another ship on it's way to get butt kicked ................

 

[Matt308]

I certainly hope so, if they resist the boarders/inspectors with violence.

 

[BombTaxi]

looks like another ship on it's way to get butt kicked ................

There will only be violence if the occupants of of MV Rachel Corrie resist boarding by Israeli officials. If the Israelis were smart, they would let the ship enter Gazan waters (let's remember, it's a merchant ship, no matter how militant the crew), detain the vessel and request permission to board. If the occupants of the ship are foolish enough to refuse and/or resist, they deserve everything they get and Israel emerges blameless.

Knowing Israel, what they will actually do is repeat the botch job they did last time and again fail to understand why they are being criticised. They can't seem to understand that it isn't what they did that makes people irate, it's how they went about doing it.

I also concur with Snautzer that the recent boarding raised some serious questions about Israeli forces capabilities. That a bunch of civvies, armed with chair legs and sticks, managed to wrest two firearms from Israeli SF operators and use them on their owners, must be causing much rage and head-scratching among the Israeli SF community.

Even worse, very little has emerged about the Hamas weapons that the Israelis feared were aboard the ships. Despite the detention of the vessels and their occupants, no find has been announced - and one would think that Israel would have searched the ships ASAP and trumpeted their finds as a way of deflecting global criticism. Maybe the rockets being shipped to Hamas by civilian aid convoys will turn out to be the same make as the ones Saddam was aiming at the free world????

 

[Matt308]

I've had enough of this. Thread closed.