Italian Aircraft Camouflage and Markings
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I am trying to identify the marking on the cowling of the Reggaine 2002.
The photo is of King Victor Emanuel and 5th Storma commander, Major Carlo Rizzi.
Photo was taken October 1943 at Mandurie Air Field . The Americans are Brig General CH Ridenour and Colonel Taylor of the 47th Bomb Wing.
Thanks,
Earl
The photo is of King Victor Emanuel and 5th Storma commander, Major Carlo Rizzi.
Photo was taken October 1943 at Mandurie Air Field . The Americans are Brig General CH Ridenour and Colonel Taylor of the 47th Bomb Wing.
Thanks,
Earl
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ranger2692
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Earl,
Give me a few days I have seen this insignia, being Italian I sent to italy for Regio decals. I am almost positive I have this one!
Ben
Give me a few days I have seen this insignia, being Italian I sent to italy for Regio decals. I am almost positive I have this one!
Ben
My guess is 101 Gruppo, either Squadriglie 208 or 238
According to "Courage Alone" by C. Dunning, only two Gruppo flew the Re 2002 operationally. That was 101 and 102, both from Manduria in the summer of 1943. Both were nearly decimated by September, but did have a few still servicable.
Dunning also shows a photo of the 102 Gruppo's emblem, which he decribes as a "guitar-playing cockroach...used on the unit's Re 2002s." Your photo would be hard to construe as that description. It looks more like a bow-wielding figure to me.
This is still no guarantee however, as there are no photos or references for a 101 Gruppo emblem. Photos of the group's Ju-87s flown earlier in the war (1941) have no visible emblems whatsoever. Have not been able to find photos of the Cr 42s they flew in 1942.
Hope this helps,
Jack
According to "Courage Alone" by C. Dunning, only two Gruppo flew the Re 2002 operationally. That was 101 and 102, both from Manduria in the summer of 1943. Both were nearly decimated by September, but did have a few still servicable.
Dunning also shows a photo of the 102 Gruppo's emblem, which he decribes as a "guitar-playing cockroach...used on the unit's Re 2002s." Your photo would be hard to construe as that description. It looks more like a bow-wielding figure to me.
This is still no guarantee however, as there are no photos or references for a 101 Gruppo emblem. Photos of the group's Ju-87s flown earlier in the war (1941) have no visible emblems whatsoever. Have not been able to find photos of the Cr 42s they flew in 1942.
Hope this helps,
Jack
Slept on this one and came up with another thought: since 101 never used a special insignia before, maybe those are the other planes in the photos. None of the others shown had any cowl markings.
And since the Gruppo had just switched sides, MAYBE 102 didn't want to be identified by their earlier markings, so they changed them a little. They kept the shield, and slightly modified the internal drawing.
But I would bet money that the plane is from either:
Gruppo 101 -Squadriglia 208 or 238
Gruppo 102 - Squadriglia 209 or 239
Sorry I couldn't be more helpful,
Jack
And since the Gruppo had just switched sides, MAYBE 102 didn't want to be identified by their earlier markings, so they changed them a little. They kept the shield, and slightly modified the internal drawing.
But I would bet money that the plane is from either:
Gruppo 101 -Squadriglia 208 or 238
Gruppo 102 - Squadriglia 209 or 239
Sorry I couldn't be more helpful,
Jack
Thanks Jack,
I believe you are correct. The Badge/Marking is one of these four .Gruppo 101 -Squadriglia 208 or 238 Gruppo 102 - Squadriglia 209 or 239 .Here is a photo a friend sent me taken about the same time and place. I'll keep looking and if I find anything I'll let you know.
Earl
I believe you are correct. The Badge/Marking is one of these four .Gruppo 101 -Squadriglia 208 or 238 Gruppo 102 - Squadriglia 209 or 239 .Here is a photo a friend sent me taken about the same time and place. I'll keep looking and if I find anything I'll let you know.
Earl
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leefif1953
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- Jan 19, 2008
what is the difference between the fascist symbol in the circle as opposed to the one in the square?
The A/C shown in this picture is reported as being the personal A/C of Maj Giuseppe Cenni, KIA on Spt 4, 1943. At that time he was CO of 102 Gruppo. Hence I believe the badge is the one of this particoular Gruppo.
Until Jul 26, 1943 (end of fascist era) the full colored fascio emblem was sported on both side of engine cowling, just where we now founfd the 102 Gr badge. As soon as I can get a good detailed picture/drawing of the badge I'll post it (I'm looking for a WWII booket about Italian AF heraldry)
Sagittario
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- 2
- Nov 26, 2007
You excuse my English but I would like to help the coat of arms to understand you on the motor of the Reggianes 2002.
A historical search has been published by the writer Italian Paul Waldis in its book "The Fighters Reggiane" of the series "Wings and Colors" (ali e colori) of the publishing house "La Bancarella Aeronautica."
Waldis reaches these conclusions: ""... in load to the 239 ^ squadron together brought the codes in fuselage to the coat of arms of group with the cricket in tail,.... to the place of the bundle in use before July 25 th 1943 you/he/she had been from little painting on the face the new coat of arms of flock raffigurante a busy little devil with the witticism 'faso tutto mi' (I make all self) ..... ".
I hope to have been useful.
Regards.
Sagittarius
A historical search has been published by the writer Italian Paul Waldis in its book "The Fighters Reggiane" of the series "Wings and Colors" (ali e colori) of the publishing house "La Bancarella Aeronautica."
Waldis reaches these conclusions: ""... in load to the 239 ^ squadron together brought the codes in fuselage to the coat of arms of group with the cricket in tail,.... to the place of the bundle in use before July 25 th 1943 you/he/she had been from little painting on the face the new coat of arms of flock raffigurante a busy little devil with the witticism 'faso tutto mi' (I make all self) ..... ".
I hope to have been useful.
Regards.
Sagittarius
harrison987
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- 5
- Jan 4, 2005
Here's a question...
This was cut from an Italian Fighter by a NORWEGIAN PILOT, "apparently" during the Battle of the Bulge.
Info I have is this:
Was cut be a Norwegian pilot who was stationed with the 132 wing and was attached to 331 Sq in Grimbergen, Belgium. They were in operations over Belgium between 6th October and 22nd December. They made many, many sweeps and missions with their Spitfires and of course were for obvious reasons also put into the Battle of the Bulge against the Germans. They had many victories but also many casualties over Belgium and Holland.
BUT...
was recently given the following info:
-That emblem was only used until July 25, 1943. No Italian aircraft used it after that day.
-In Belgium, Italians were not using the Macchi 200 (Retired from front lines in 1943)
So...can anyone confirm or make light on any of this info?
Thanks!
mike
This was cut from an Italian Fighter by a NORWEGIAN PILOT, "apparently" during the Battle of the Bulge.
Info I have is this:
Was cut be a Norwegian pilot who was stationed with the 132 wing and was attached to 331 Sq in Grimbergen, Belgium. They were in operations over Belgium between 6th October and 22nd December. They made many, many sweeps and missions with their Spitfires and of course were for obvious reasons also put into the Battle of the Bulge against the Germans. They had many victories but also many casualties over Belgium and Holland.
BUT...
was recently given the following info:
-That emblem was only used until July 25, 1943. No Italian aircraft used it after that day.
-In Belgium, Italians were not using the Macchi 200 (Retired from front lines in 1943)
So...can anyone confirm or make light on any of this info?
Thanks!
mike
Grimbergen is about 5 miles from Melsbroech. Thats where several of the Italian sqadrons flying the BR 20 where located in 1940 during the Battle of Britain. The Corpo Aereo Italiano also had several fighter squadrons (flying Cr42s and G50s) nearer the coast at Maldegem and Ursel.
Are you sure this came from a Macchi 200? And did the pilot claim he shot down the Italian plane? How large is it, the plaid blanket infers it's somewhat small.
This could easily be a case where a pilot found a derelict plane and procured a trophy. Lot of bad weather at that time and he would have spare time on his hands. Also, not too many stories of pilots landing and taking trophies like they could in World War One!
Jack
Are you sure this came from a Macchi 200? And did the pilot claim he shot down the Italian plane? How large is it, the plaid blanket infers it's somewhat small.
This could easily be a case where a pilot found a derelict plane and procured a trophy. Lot of bad weather at that time and he would have spare time on his hands. Also, not too many stories of pilots landing and taking trophies like they could in World War One!
Jack
harrison987
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- 5
- Jan 4, 2005
Hi!
Thanks for the reply...
The emblem is around 13" in diameter.
The Norwegian Spitfire pilot did claim he shot this one down. Of course, like the US pilots and soldiers, sometime there were a lot of mis-ID's. Also, during the course of 60 years, info may get lost or misconstrued.
Mike
Thanks for the reply...
The emblem is around 13" in diameter.
The Norwegian Spitfire pilot did claim he shot this one down. Of course, like the US pilots and soldiers, sometime there were a lot of mis-ID's. Also, during the course of 60 years, info may get lost or misconstrued.
Mike
Usually this emblem was applied in decal form (as the coat of arm in the white rudder cross).
Macchi C200 were not flown in Belgium but a Fiat G50 could look like a Macchi C200.. (it is the mistake I made when I was a child when first attempting to model WW2 Italian aircrafts
)
Macchi C200 were not flown in Belgium but a Fiat G50 could look like a Macchi C200.. (it is the mistake I made when I was a child when first attempting to model WW2 Italian aircrafts
)
Marcogrifo
Airman 1st Class
Hi,
IMHO there is some misinformation or confusion in this story: the Battle of the Bulge started in December 1944, while the Regia Aeronautica's expeditionary force leaved once and for all Belgium starting from January 1941 (two fighter squadrons stayed there until April).
Cheers
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