alejandro_
Airman 1st Class
- 281
- Jul 4, 2005
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So what does history have to say about combat proof? How often did they actually meet in combat? What were the outcomes? What did the pilots have to say?I'm not saying the Raiden will outperform the P-47N even if its only at 52", but data sheet racing isn't combat proof
Just to be clear, did they climb to 14000-25000 feet then drop to below 10000 feet prior to bombing or just cruise in and out at below 10000 feet above MSL.Night bombing was conducted under 10,000'.
From what I remembered...It might depend on the mission, but climbing to 25,000 on the way in could burn hundreds (many hundreds) of gallons of fuel. By not climbing to 25,000ft they could carry more bombs further.
Ivan,
The speed advantage is also mostly at very high altitude where the J2M probably would not be.
The P-47N escorted the B-29s. Original bombing of the B-29s over Japan was its
cruising altitude of 30,000 ft. Later it was restricted to night missions at a lower
level. I am not a historian of bomber aircraft, so I do not know at what altitude
the night missions were flown at.
The J2M as mentioned has a particularly high power to weight ratio and probably a very good acceleration as a result and that may lessen the apparent speed difference.
Agreed sir. The Raiden was a more dynamic aircraft.
Jeff
It might depend on the mission, but climbing to 25,000 on the way in could burn hundreds (many hundreds) of gallons of fuel. By not climbing to 25,000ft they could carry more bombs further.
Turbocharged recips don't suffer the huge low altitude fuel penalties that gas turbine aircraft do. A jet or turboprop B29 would have needed to climb to FL300 or higher for the long haul, even if attack altitude was 10K or less. Flying all the way at attack altitude would burn less fuel overall and keep them under the radar horizon much closer in to the target. That last 10K of climb in the thin air above 20K would be a long, slow, thirsty slog for heavily laden B29s.I would have thought that climbing to 10000' would reduce energy to climb, but would have required more energy to carry it along.
More widespead use of the Ki-44 in 1943 is one of the great "what-ifs" for Japanese aircraft. It never happened for several reasonsHowever if you are trying to decide which was the better plane in late 1942, all of 1943 and most of 1944 then the Tojo wins
Hello Corsning,
Years ago, I asked a related question to a fairly knowledgeable fellow about why the B-29s didn't continue to bomb from around 30,000 feet where they were pretty much immune to interceptions.
His explanation was that although the B-29 could easily sustain those altitudes, bombing accuracy was pretty lousy because of the wind conditions (Jetstream) at that altitude. It made more sense to bring the bombers down lower so they could actually hit something. By that stage of the war, interceptions by fighters were not considered to be as risky to the point that most of the bombers were not carrying all their defensive armament anymore anyway, though tail guns were usually retained.
Thank you for the added information sir.
Another interesting tidbit to consider is that the J2M3 as tested by TAIC was actually a bit faster than your chart shows. It should be 417 MPH. 407 MPH is the speed attributed to the J2M2 that was tested.
Hi Ivan, if you are referring to the chart on post #33 the numbers posted are for a J2M2 Jack 11..
The J2M3 sometimes had broad blade propellers installed, but the one that was tested did not have those.
They can be recognized by corners at the root of each propeller blade. I don't know if that difference would have improved speed, but I would expect that a bigger propeller would not have been installed if it didn't help anything.
More great information sir. I will have to look into this.
- Ivan.
Turbocharged recips don't suffer the huge low altitude fuel penalties that gas turbine aircraft do. A jet or turboprop B29 would have needed to climb to FL300 or higher for the long haul, even if attack altitude was 10K or less. Flying all the way at attack altitude would burn less fuel overall and keep them under the radar horizon much closer in to the target. That last 10K of climb in the thin air above 20K would be a long, slow, thirsty slog for heavily laden B29s.
On my way back from Aircraft Escape and Rescue Training at NAS Cecil, I hitched a jump seat ride in an Eastern DC9-10 from JAX to MIA with a couple of Navy trained Eastern pilots, both still active in the reserves, and both former "mustangs". Our flight profile (not the standard filed flight plan) was a max rate climb to FL260, 50 miles NE of Orlando, then a flight idle descent into MIA. It was late at night, we were high on the approach profile, traffic was dead, and the crew talked the controller (another ex-squid) into letting us do a high altitude military style teardrop penetration approach (not a peep from the cabin, just snores). The power levers stayed at idle until it was time to dirty up for landing. Fuel burn beat the programmed number for the standard FL180 flight plan by 15%, and we beat the scheduled flight time by 7 minutes. That's how dramatic the altitude difference is with turbines.
One of my buddies from the flying club taxied up to the gate as we were deplaning about 0100 (on to the tarmac; jetways all occupied by morning departures), and got me back to NQX in time to catch a few winks before morning muster.
Biff, Flieger, and any other active airline pilots out there, that was nearly fifty years ago, and rules were a tad different then. I even got my Commercial and CFI without an Instrument Rating at first. Had to upgrade in 1975.
Cheers,
Wes
2) Handling of Ki-44 was much more difficult than Ki-43/61 both in flight and especially landing for new pilots.
From Aircraft of the Aces 100 by Osprey page 16:
"The Ki-44 was at first restricted to pilots with at least 1000 hours of flying
time because of its tricky handling characteristics, but it was later found
that younger pilots who had not been instilled with the extensive aerobatic
training of earlier cadres could manage the aircraft perfectly well, so the
restriction was removed."
We must remember that the "fast landing speed and trick handling" that so
many publishers use is comparing the Ki.44 to such aircraft as the Ki.27, Ki.43
A5M and A6M. Those terms would apply to every late war US fighter except
the P-40N and FM-2 by comparison.
1) Range for Ki-44 was much less than Ki-43/61, and in the South Pacific range is king,
Agreed.
Ki.44-II: 740 ml/174 mph/128 g internal fuel, 1,050 ml/166 mph/197 g w/drop tanks.
Ki.61-I: 1,195 ml/215 mph/215 g internal, 2,010 ml/148 mph/299 g w/drop tanks.
Ki.43-II: 1,180 ml/145 mph/149 g internal, 1,745 ml/137 mph/137 g w/drop tanks.
J2M2m11: 650 ml/165 mph/109 g internal, 1,127 ml/156 mph/223 g w/drop tanks.
All ranges are at 1,500 ft.
On weekends when they weren't doing syllabus hops, the F4 and A4 guys would go out and do penetrations over the field from 20K. Unrestricted climb followed by a "dead stick" (flight idle and just enough "boards out" to compensate for the residual thrust) teardrop approach to a touch and go and do it all again. An F4 could manage just about 4 reps on internal fuel; an A4 could just about squeak out 5. We never had to wait for Navy Day or the 4th of July for an airshow; between the Grim Reapers and the Beaufort Harriers, we had an airshow most weekends. But for those hapless mid shift workers who had to sleep in the daytime, it was an unholy PITA.From what I understand the penetration approach was designed for the early jets which had tremendously short legs or very high fuel burns. It allowed for an almost entirely flown in idle descent approach and the navaid was usually on the destination airfield.
Wasn't it the last jet to enter service with centrifugal compressor engines? That J69 is a cute little kerosene powered siren. We had a Tweet drop in at our field with a powerplant casualty when I was working in the shop at the commuter. It sat over at the Air Guard for several days waiting for the AF to fly in a new engine and a engine change crew. The Air Guard offered to do the work, but the pilot, a fresh out of UPT FAIP with a shiny butterbar, said he was not allowed to let weekend warriors touch his bird. So stated, as he gazed longingly at the F16s being upgraded to a later block configuration. Some of my fellow mechs were in the Guard, so when we went on our midrats break, we would stop over and check progress on the Tweet. For what should have been a simple operation, it sure took long enough. The crew they flew in were a bunch of young kids led by an E6 who looked like he belonged in high school.The Tweet was a fairly early jet.
Wasn't it the last jet to enter service with centrifugal compressor engines? That J69 is a cute little kerosene powered siren. We had a Tweet drop in at our field with a powerplant casualty when I was working in the shop at the commuter. It sat over at the Air Guard for several days waiting for the AF to fly in a new engine and a engine change crew. The Air Guard offered to do the work, but the pilot, a fresh out of UPT FAIP with a shiny butterbar, said he was not allowed to let weekend warriors touch his bird. So stated, as he gazed longingly at the F16s being upgraded to a later block configuration. Some of my fellow mechs were in the Guard, so when we went on our midrats break, we would stop over and check progress on the Tweet. For what should have been a simple operation, it sure took long enough. The crew they flew in were a bunch of young kids led by an E6 who looked like he belonged in high school.
The Tweet pilot hung around for days with nothing to do and bemoaning his fate. Seems he had his heart set on being a fighter pilot, but instead they made him an instrument instructor and sent him around to do proficiency rides with senior officers who were aviators but assigned to non-flying billets. Not a particularly ego-gratifying activity.
Cheers,
Wes
In the winter of 1984/85, I forget the exact date. The Air Guard had just traded in their F4Ds for some 1st generation F16s which needed to be upgraded before they could go on line. They did that so swiftly and efficiently that USAF started sending other units' birds to them for upgrading. They had an experienced and mature maintenance force with a lot of retired career NCOs working there full time (not your average weekend warrior outfit), and became a designated F16 upgrade center, as they had been for the F4, EB57, and F89 previously.What year was that?
If that Tweet had contract maintenance at home, I suppose the contractor would be a little leery as to who was going to fiddle with his jets. OTOH, that bunch of kids they sent to do the engine swap looked pretty military to us. A band of 2 and 3 stripers on a shop floor where almost everyone was wearing 5 or more. The old timers labeled them (privately) as "the Keystone Kops" and intervened only once, to prevent what could have been a serious injury.It's not unusual for one unit to not let another do work on their jets.